Choosing French Submarines over German?
| Aug 02, 2009 | Comments 52
Choosing French Submarines over German? : Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence?
By Farzana Shah
A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.
However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.
In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of navel staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.
The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.
However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.
But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.
What France has in store? :
There are three options 1. Scorpion, 2. Marlin and 3. Barracuda submarines. But again the Scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.
U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales ), France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians. The success of Marlin, or weather or not it will be better than U-214 German sub cannot be predicted. Currently, U-214 for the best non-nuclear submarine in the world, and our friends in Turkey will soon produce it at home with the license of production.
Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.
Despite having French Agosta-90B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta-90B due to the superior German technology.
Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.
If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.
Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.
Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.
On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.
Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.
In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.
There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.
Farzana Shah is a Pakistani journalist based at Peshawar and also a member of the Pakistan Defence Forum. You can reach her at janashah @gmail.com.
it l b costly for pakistan
hehe,french produce best Subs in the world…
Assalam walaicum, being a pakistani i have to choose ‘russian subs’ for our mother land, it’s right that these subs are very costly. i think about that now have consider ‘russian arms’ because they have very power full fire power and easy to buy. thanks & regadrs shariq ahmed
No dude we don’t need Russian “Maal” French , British , American , Chinese and our own weapons are great ..Russia cannot defend its own self in Afghan-russian war Against Afghanistan and Pakistan Afghan-Pak forces destroyed Soviet Union(Superpower) and split into many pieces …
Now it is only a though guy. Neither superpower like US nor like China …
has zardari any$ to do with it ?
Why did Pakistanis choose mr. 10 percent as their president anyways? We all know that this guy can sell his soul for money. In fact his name comes up if u google search mr. 10 percent. He was very likely bribed to cancel that German sub deal.
Get German Then Russian Subs And Test Both against Each other in Exercise
Assalam walaicum to all my friends, ‘Pakistan’ is our lovely country our heart our soul and our mother land. we are the greatest nation of the world. we have massive nuclear power and our nation enemies knows that, day by day we are going to be very stronger in defence,education, health,sports, and will be rise more stronger in ecnomical sector inshallah. i salute to our armed forces, ALLAH BLESS YOU ALL THE TIME. your’s truly shariq ahmed.
Shariq….get a life. Your so called lovely is totally screwed up in every category. In about 5 to 10 years, Bangladesh will be the second biggest economy in the subcontinent. You should be ashamed that you are from Pakistan. All you people is create fanatical lunatic.
Salam to everyone!!
First of all a message to mr.shrebangla with due respect:
Respect everyone else opinion too like they respect your’s and also respect other countries. I’ve nothing against Bangladesh and hope that you people get a strong economy, militry and etc. but don’t dare to make joke of my country, remind it we have already achieved many goals which you will achieve in next 10 to 20 years…don’t mind budy i’m not saying anything negative about your country, if you are so excited about your country’s achievements then all others are also happy for the achievemnt’s of their respective countries like shariq ahmed so stick to the argument without making fun of others opinions.
Regarding the question about the acquiring of French subs, i think it’s very sad that their are some politicians which have their personal interests in this deal (ex. mr 10% and company) the decision must be maid on the base of concrete facts and the GoP have to explain all the reasons to the nation about their decision.
yeh watan humara hy…. hum hain pasban is kay
People have a short memory. Have we forgotten that ‘admiral’ Zardari and a former corrupt naval chief of staff Mansoorul Haq conspired to buy French Agosta-B class submarines 1994 after taking heavy bribes in kickbacks. The deal was cancelled when Zardari went to jail ( like he usually does) and Mansoorul Haq was kicked out by America to return to Pakistan where Pervez Musharraf detained him. Now a baboon like Zardari has one again been given the chance to mess with Defence procurement and purchase. When are we even going to wake up ?
Get Two German Subs First Then Two Russian Subs, I want to test both against Each other.
In over 60+ years of Pakistan’s existence, not one civilian leader has been elected in any true democratic election. Most, if not all elections in Pakistan are a matter of fraud, with the constituency being literally being paid to vote! The most dangerous poison being Pakistan’s powerful landowners, who have maintained complete sway over all matters in the country. Speaking of Zardari, I would ask someone to please explain to me how he assumed leadership of the PPP, without going through an electoral process, first, without any challengers and being accepted as a leader, simply on the basis of a hand-written piece of proclamation from his late wife. For your edification, that is not democracy, it is autocracy. And yet another powerful landowner waits in the wings….Nawaz Sharif. The bottom line is ….as long as there is no educational reform, particularly on a mass level, these crooks, the landowners are going to continue their hegemony over the people and the country of Pakistan!
well,I think we should go for german Sub U214 , reason is that it is already inducted in few navies.Harpoon-2 may be easily integrated on these sub.While Marlin is still need to be tested.we can not afford such experiment while we are spending a lot of nation’s money.Another reason, German’s sub will take max 5 years to be in PN sea while Marlin may take more time.On other hand, france is sweenting deal with other offers like upgradation of old PN subs and Tiger helicopters etc.If we afford , make both deals as we need at least six sub coz india is acquiring 6 scorpion sub from france,two from russia including nuclear sub on lease for 10 years and building its own nuclear 5 subs.So Govt should think from all aspect before making final decision.Thanks
zardari is famous as mr. 10%,now he is all in all i mean mr.100% so for sure he will do what suits his pockets best.do u guys think he cares for pakistan?answer is no.because of his popularity as mr.10% pakistan s old and tested friends like china and saudiarabia are not ready to help out pakistan as they used to do in the past.plz be assured that he will not spare defence forces of pakistan when it comes to money grab.
@navid butt.yes mr.ghadari i mean mr.zardari(mr.10%) has everything to do with it.let us ask ourselves why is zardari famous all over the world as mr.10%,i am sure there is a reason for that nickname.german submarines are the best submarines among the lot available but why we are going for french submarines its a state secret,maybe french offered more commission than germans.
salam my opinion is pakistan have to buy german u-214 beacuse this sub is more better than france’s scorpion and other’s my opinion is also this that we have to buy american or russian arms but their arm’s are very expensive that’s why we can’t afford so we have to buy german u-214 that’s all
FEEL FREE TO LEAVE A COMMENT what a joke? i sent two comments and twice they were not posted and were rejected by you and still you claim that FEEL FREE TO LEAVE COMMENT.what a lie? if i had written something wrong and you did not agree atleast you could have informed me since you had my email address.i know you will not post my these comments too because you donot have the guts and you are on someone s payroll.
AOA
Brothers, there is nothing expensive if it is about the defence of our motherland.
If you the guys would go in to specifications, it is the best option for Pakistan in the current international market
Salams.. Its really a wonderful article Farzana.. I smell some type of ”under the table” deal in it.. because it was also the case during purchase of French mirages and mr Zardari had a major role in that deal.. But i m optimistic that the senate commitee wont approve anything not in favour of Pakistan..
First and formost we have to utilize our all resources given by ALLAH to make our beloved country Pakistan consolidate so that world will oblige to buy our made submarine
As far As current senario is concerned poverty in our country is biggest dilema and for getting prosperity we have to confront and solve this dilema first, and therefore buying expensive submarines right now will not be a good decision as we are not in the condition of buying it.
Inflation rate is increasing day by day and goods are getting expensive rapidly and a poor people are not in the provision of buying a two times bread easily life is getting difficult day by day we dont have enough and sufficient reserves and above all this we have put a credit contract up with the IMF Industires are going towards downsizing all in all i have to say we can not pass by all these facts and figures
so we have to ponder above crusial obstacles first
and there are sevral problems which i have,nt discussed yet
Electricity problem
water problem
Think About it
if Pkaitsani government buy expensive submarine who will bear that expense
Mr Asif ali zardari
or a common man of Pakistan
Please dont try to abstain the truth
try to accept it
we are not in the conditon of increasing our budget
Thank You
A sincere person of Pakistan.
SAlam to all the members of Pak Defence
I am studying in 2nd year now and i want to join P.A.F so i want to know that what things are require for joining in the P.A.F .
Sir please do tell me i am waiting
AOA TO ALL READERS YA I AGREE WITH THAT SIR BUT WHY WE
ARE NOT LOOKING FOR CHINA AS THEY HAVE NUCLEAR TECH AND MAY BE THE NEXT SUPER POWER THEY HAVE ALL SOURCES AND POINT TO BE NOTED CHINA IS THE MOST RELIABLE COUNTRY FOR PAKISTAN
MAY ALLAH BLESS OUR COUNTRY
PAKISTAN ZIINDA BAD
PAKISTAN ARMY PAINDA BAD
AoA wr wb
i think v should step forward how long we have to depend on french and after having german tech we will b having malti options as due to any reasin if french chang there mind we will not be at a empty hand position
aoa,
day before yesterday, i read in ‘express news paper’ that buying german sub U-214 is on track and the matter is with the finance ministry for finalization, i personally think that pakistan navy has rightly chosen german sub over french sub for due reasons:
1) german are the inventors submarine, and they have master this craft, in world war two, german subs were symbol of terror for the west because of its superior design, technology and low noise.
2) pakistan navy can use earlier experience of french sub building and with german sub, so it will be deadly combination (i.e. german and french) which might pave the way in future for pakistan to emerge as a country of indigenous sub maker.
3) french already transfered the technology, now its time to learn this craft from germans and i am very optimistic about the future prospects of this joint venture.
4) pakistan can improvise and customize things to suit their environment and needs, so in my opinion there is no need for hue n cry as people are doing.
i hope this might clear the point of view and gives fruit for thought to thinking heads.
regards,
python
Dear Shariq,
Asalammu Alaikum,
First of all. With no doubt that Pakistan is a great nation, because it’s the strongest Islamic armed forces in the world, but we need to be sincere to Allah, to Pakistan and to ourselves. We need to do much much better to improve the country’s stability, education, economy, and much more. It requires time and extremely hard work along with Honesty and Faithfulness. I have no doubt in the world that Pakistan will be the greatest nation in the world, but we all need to put the effort.
Secondly, about the Russian subs, Russia has very powerful fire power, and Pakistan Defence can afford it, but sadly India will not allow Russia to sell us anything, not even oil or gas, and Russia has to be faithful to India. Therefore Paksitan has no choice.
I pray with all my heart that Pakistan Armed forces have the latest technology built by our Pakistanis to defend this most beautiful mother land that we all call PAKISTAN.
Many Regards,
Omar Ahmed
Aslaamualaikum brothers,
I personally believe German inventory are far superior to French, not saying that French design are not so good, they are, but Germany military designs have always been advance, superior, sophisticated and ideal for Pakistan Navy, i.e. the sale of U-214 subs over French, the U-Boats are better and on the subject, I think Pakistan should expand their Air Fleet, because, Pakistan Air Fleet is too small, we need more than 1,000 aircraft in our inventory. We should tap the untapped raw materials and purchase more military planes, ships, subs, and lastly remove Zardari from office, he’s a corrupt man, they didn’t call him Mr. 10 percent, but finally I believe the navy should be superior to Indians, our enemies and friends of Israel, build a massive fleet in the region and continue to build more frigates, destroyers and maybe consider building battleships, we have abundant of raw materials to finance these procurements and building of our armed forces. Inshallah they shall continue to be strong and continue the self-reliance in all departments.
W/Salam Arshad bhai..
Yar German may ab wo baat nahi jo Adolf ke time may thi balke us time ka German tu UK and USA se bhi superior tha but is time German aik normal country hay jabke france is a great power After USA , UK and CHina…France is superb option for Pakistani Navy.
Well Pakistani Aircraft is small (Not too small) but very harmful for any opponent aur wese bhi Pakistan ki world wise sab se hi friendship hay no one against Pakistan haan india is enemy of Pakistan but un kay sukhoi aur migs ko F16 D block 52 and JF thunders buhat aaram se dhool chaata sakte hain No probs at all..
India navy well it is a joke they cannot open their aircraft-C against Pakistan..They have massive area to defence and specially china is the big threat for them so un ki Navy aik joke hay no threat for pakistan.
I think pakis should buy indian arms like Arjun, LCA, Brahmos, Astra, Prithvi, Agni, Nag, INSAS ,APC Abhay, Dhruv Heli, Pinaka MBRL etc. So that pakistani will know how superior these arms to other nations and cost effective. Cheap to buy but effectiveness and efficiency is much more than any western counter parts.
And also need to educate pakistani madarasa student to become a techie guy.
Thanks
Mohammad Aslam
Mohammad@India…
Well Arjun is better called Arjunk..
Pakistani produced Al-Khalid is best in Asia and main MBT of Pakistan.
Al-Khalid Properties:
Produced in Pakistan so Pakistan has no worries about spare parts.
Light so easily transported.
An advanced laser detection warning system. Data link.
Can track target while moving.
Auxiliary power unit.
Nuclear-biological-chemical defences.
Night-fighting equipment.
Fires anti-tank rounds, guided anti-tank missiles.
GPS.
Pakistan has more advance ballistic missiles than india go and google it..
These kind of weapons that you mentioned above are just useless.
You are right other nations just start laughing on these kind of Weapons and cost is only effective for indians ..
These all are Russian crap..Russia couldn’t defend her dignity against Afghanistan when Russia was on top lol
Pakistani Madaris is much modernized if compared with india.After they done their madarsa they participate in universities..That is why Pakistan has largest rate of Doctors , Engineers ,Scientist and they are working inside as well europe and Americas also.Pakistan produced all their weapons in pakistan unlike india and ISI is also trained and got education in Pakistan and you know well about ISI one of the greatest intelligence in world.
Birth rate in uneducated-India has reduced only 1.2 percent compared to 3.4 percent for Pakistan 1998-2009.
ALso a big factor that Pakistanis give attention to their own language Urdu like :
Arabs
Americans
Europeans
Chinese
do. They all great nations give attentions to their own languages.
For Indians Pehle Apni zaban tu bolo phir kisi par baghair knowledge kay ilzam lagana lol
Salam,
hey umar u need not to talk to this creep, it is useless because they have been brainwashed by there media and have lost there minds, they believe whatever is said to them without looking at the facts, so don’t bother it.
Allah Hafiz
AOA
ZARDARI BEMARI MR 10% K HOTE HOWE KISI ACHI BAAT KI TUWAKO KARNA BEWAQOFI HA.
AH
i will say only one thing that majority of Pakistani public choose thsese leaders and untill this public did not prefere their country in the place of their wishes till then any power cannot did any thing for this pakistan so main problems is this how pakistani pibluc majority will awake for saving PAKISTAN?
if anyone have any answer of this question then plz also tell me and if this problem solved then whole PAKISTAN and Pakistanies will be safe.
Thanx
FEE AMANILLAH
Today v r in huge crisis, in this situation every defence weapon iz very important 4 our national security… plz govt should handle this issue in wise n well-behaved manner….
Assalam Walaicum to all my friend, i have to say some ‘words’ about our armed forces of pakistan’ pls read it care fully. TO KHAILNA TUM IS AZAM SAY LAY JAI GAY BAZI QASAM SAY,TUM HI JEETO GAY MAIDAN CHOLO GAY TUM ASMAN,JAZBA RAKHNA HAY RAWA AGAY BARNA HAY JAWA, YE TAIRA PAKISTAN YE MAIRA PAKISTAN. CHAHO JIS DES BHI MAY KAHI YAAD AI HAY MUJH KO TAIRI KUCH AISI HAY SHAAN TAIRI JO DAIKHI KHABI NA KAHI TO MAAN LO REHNA YA HI HAY APNO SAY BICHARNA NAHI HAY YE TAIRA PAKISTAN YE MAIRA PAKISTAN. thanks and regard’s shariq ahmed.
slam o alikum
my all brothers and sister i think u214 is the best choice but our idiot government wana go for french ssk,s . u214 is the one of the best and modren submirine in the world.
i love pak army very much.i want that i jion pak army what i do?
Germanic are always in more advantage compared to french cos they have more sophisticated compared to french and more over they are produced quickly than french these reasons allow pak to buy more geman subs compared to french.
Assalamulaikum ! I have seen videos of pak army jawans beating local pathans in nwfp area. It really hurt my heart, Poor people saying allah ke llye na maro.. ya allah ya allah madad. How can pak army mulims beat this poeople with such despotic attitude.
I know god wont forgive us this zulim. Aj jo meri, mere mulak ki, qom ki halt ho wo khuda ki narazgi hamere zulmo ki waja se hain,
I was so proud of pak army and pakistan, i wanted to use all my resources for my country. I was ambassador for pakistan by my actons and my words.
Today i am hiding my face and seeing no hope. Allah mauf kare how can we fight others when we do zulum on our people. Ya allah maufi.
i have only one question that why are we accepting other countries sub why cant they build there own????????????????????????????????????????????
we say that we love our country gbut what are we doing for it nothing
this is true u can ask your self a question about it just like me
BY THE NAME OF ALLAH
I SAID THAT RUSSIAN SUBS ARE VERY USEFUL FOR MOTHER LAND
I LOVE MY PAK ARMY
salaam.
i love and like so much our army and isi.pakistan zindabad
You cannot buy on quantity when it comes to the armed forces. You must buy quality! Buy the best!
Assalam o Alaikum,
My name is Muhammad Fahad I am from Sahiwal I visited Defence forum 4 the first time acttually i want to about Pak army,s fiting ability against India.kia pakistani army America say larnay ki position main ahi if yes tell me how they could fight bcouse they are fighting against islamic extrimiest Actually I call them by giving word (MAZHABE JAHEL).janashah @gmail.com.lease answer me ………
Dear farzana,
i appreciate your comprehensive knowlegde over the issue but i suggest to switch over chinese armaments
with tranfer of technology for self reliance as its WE,the Pakistanis who can make Pakistan Greater and Strong
Thanks
Patriot91
your email janashah @gmail.com does not work
any word on the deal guys?…..i hope we buy the German U boats….can anyone update me on whats the status of the deal.. last time i heard tehre were talks of french engineers killing which took during the pervious PPP government when zardari was not that powerful…
pakistan should buy german sub,s because they produce the best sub,s in the world and by the way what has zardari has to to with it he is politition and knows nothing about sub,s.
Is Age of Fighter Aircraft and Missiles is Over..????
Latest Russian Military tested “Plasma Lasers” … check youtube for Norway UFO…..
that can bring down fighter planes and Missiles….
do you think Pakistan can develop the same Technology….. cuz it doesnt need western knowledge…. like we needed for our Nukes….
and Pakistan can build it locally…..
and what about Kinetic weapons…. and ElectroMagnetic Weapons…..
Are responsible people of Pak Army thinking about it….
because India will get this Technology from Russia in not more than 2 years…. then wat will pakistan do….???
just imagine multi billion dollar Aircraft Career would become a useless dustbin…. when a small boat with plasma laser can destroy the whole Aircraft career fleet…..
We should get best quality for our forces alongwith technology.
Tum log apni khyaloon ki duniya mein hee rehna.bhool gae kya kaise humne tumhe 1971 mein kutta banna ke pita tha. Jai hind