RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[hasnain0099]

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The only reason this thread has been going on for so long is that people from both sides deal in absolute terms...some Indians are refusing to accept the f-16 is even capable of shooting down a Gnat, while some Pakistani members have convinced themselves that the Rafale is merely a European showpiece.
It doesnt take a genius to figure out the Rafale is a superior aircraft and as far as development is concerned, it is far earlier in its lifecycle and has a great amount of future development left in its airframe. At this point though, as the f-16 nears its end as a premier aircraft and Rafale enters such a phase, these two aircraft are comparable to a great extent. None of the Rafale advantages are so massive that the f-16 cannot hold its own against it.
But 5-10 years from now, maybe we wont be able to say the same, as the Rafale goes through numerous upgrades and our f-16s get left behind...but for now, it is close...not so much in the future.

I am no way conceiving Rafale to be a less capable aircraft, but the point in case is that its not about the maturity of an airframe but the adaptability of the airframe which keeps an aircraft in service. We have all seen falcon to evolve from Block 10 to possible Block 70. Isn't that serves as enough proof of how adaptable this aircraft is? What else it can not take? it was the second only fighter after F-22 to have an active AESA. It had adopted to a variety of roles and capabilities evident from a number of variants,munitions and pods it can carry. Its all about adaptability of a technology to an airframe. Falcon has shown that it can go as far as you can push it. Even while reading planned upgrades for typhoon 2020 and most of them are either already present or very much implementable on Falcon. And lastly, an interesting reason why it has still a lot of potential going forward is that it is not only adaptable to operational but also strategic fit required by its operator. It has the potential to serve as both front liner with cutting edge upgrades as well as a backbone fighter being more economical to maintain than Rafale. Recently RAF has to cannibalize its Typhoons to maintain the others due to expensive spare parts. Going forward when 5th Gen export variants will be available in the market, will these platforms be able to adapt the role of secondary/backbone fighters due to their higher maintainance costs, a difficult question to answer keeping they are marketed for being frontline fighters.....

[danger007]

I am no way conceiving Rafale to be a less capable aircraft, but the point in case is that its not about the maturity of an airframe but the adaptability of the airframe which keeps an aircraft in service. We have all seen falcon to evolve from Block 10 to possible Block 70. Isn't that serves as enough proof of how adaptable this aircraft is? What else it can not take? it was the second only fighter after F-22 to have an active AESA. It had adopted to a variety of roles and capabilities evident from a number of variants,munitions and pods it can carry. Its all about adaptability of a technology to an airframe. Falcon has shown that it can go as far as you can push it. Even while reading planned upgrades for typhoon 2020 and most of them are either already present or very much implementable on Falcon. And lastly, an interesting reason why it has still a lot of potential going forward is that it is not only adaptable to operational but also strategic fit required by its operator. It has the potential to serve as both front liner with cutting edge upgrades as well as a backbone fighter being more economical to maintain than Rafale. Recently RAF has to cannibalize its Typhoons to maintain the others due to expensive spare parts. Going forward when 5th Gen export variants will be available in the market, will these platforms be able to adapt the role of secondary/backbone fighters due to their higher maintainance costs, a difficult question to answer keeping they are marketed for being frontline fighters.....

please talk about F-16 blk 52 and blk 15. Is us offerd u f-16blk52 vd AESA radar.

[hasnain0099]

please talk about F-16 blk 52 and blk 15. Is us offerd u f-16blk52 vd AESA radar.

???????????????????????? I am talking about the falcon in general, do read through my post again....

[notorious_eagle]

Failed to achieve lock on using anti BVR ? How was this achieved ? Anti BVR tacts are used to either break the lock on - or defeat the incoming BVR missile...has something changed ?

On a lighter note i think that you and ironman are part of the IAF Intelligence Team, always looking to gather more info about PAF and the exercises they have been involved in . Nice try, i wont dish out any more info than what is publicly available on these forums.

What i can tell you is that both the aircrafts went head to head, the Block52 tried to lock on from BVR range, immediately the Block15 started using its ECM pod and performed manoeuvres(which i wont name). By the time measures and counter measures were taken, they both were in WVR and PAF F16 took the TUAF by guns.

Nice but when a MKI goes down it will take atleast 2 targets down.. It carries more missile and tracks more of target and can engage more targets ... it can carry 12 missile types at the same time..

That is something we will have to see when a full shooting war breaks out, even if attrition is higher on PAF side, it still wins if they make sure that IAF does not achieves its objectives. PAF has to stand its own against the IAF for not more than 3 to 4 days, this is what the Indian Armed Forces doctrine is suggesting the time period is.

The Indians are expecting the IAF to do something similar to what NATO did to Iraqi Air Force during Desert Storm, what they fail to understand is that before Desert Storm commenced, NATO carried out strikes for 30 days and Iraqi Defence was still intact. This is where the Indian failure will be because the expectations and objectives are simply unrealistic and not achievable in the given time period.

[danger007]

???????????????????????? I am talking about the falcon in general, do read through my post again....

i think thread is about RAFALE VS F-16 blk 52.

[hasnain0099]

On a lighter note i think that you and ironman are part of the IAF Intelligence Team, always looking to gather more info about PAF and the exercises they have been involved in . Nice try, i wont dish out any more info than what is publicly available on these forums.

What i can tell you is that both the aircrafts went head to head, the Block52 tried to lock on from BVR range, immediately the Block15 started using its ECM pod and performed manoeuvres(which i wont name). By the time measures and counter measures were taken, they both were in WVR and PAF F16 took the TUAF by guns.

I can still remember Sir Pervaiz Shamim's comments on TuAF and PAF exercise (Indus Viper? I cant recall exactly). 5 Setups were staged and PAF had the 4 Kills using Block 15 vs Block 40/50 of TuAF. The only loss was due to lightening striking the aircraft.

[hasnain0099]

i think thread is about RAFALE VS F-16 blk 52.

Its my humble suggestion to read the post of PFpilot first, then mine and then if you have something constructive to add, you're more than welcome....

[kingdurgaking]

Thats the most interesting logic i have come across till date.......If you have the balls find a solid evidence that it was a fake news. If you find one, post it here, don't give us you openions. Put some facts on the table, if you have any.......

Why take effort for a ball action here.. there is no need to put so much effort... it is simple.. You guys are mislead.. You are under military rule almost 60% of the year or more which is a sufficient one.. Your history is tweaked.. your ISI/Army bought all the sensitive publication.. Your ISI/Army brainwashing the innocent uneducated youth towards death.. Cant you understand the simple logic... Your country's state shows what your ISI/Army has done to you all... misleading you everyday ....just telling everything is fine..

[hasnain0099]

Why take effort for a ball action here.. there is no need to put so much effort... it is simple.. You guys are mislead.. You are under military rule almost 60% of the year or more which is a sufficient one.. Your history is tweaked.. your ISI/Army bought all the sensitive publication.. Your ISI/Army brainwashing the innocent uneducated youth towards death.. Cant you understand the simple logic... Your country's state shows what your ISI/Army has done to you all... misleading you everyday ....just telling everything is fine..

Unless you dont have a solid evidence, please dont derail the thread....

[DARKY]

Dude either your posts are written in french.. or I suck at English.
since all you seem to be doing is ending up in the same "MKI MKI !" syndrome..
You are bringing in all sorts of statistical variables to somehow show that the IAF was invincible that day.
If that is the only result you wish to seek.
then have it.. and leave the discussion... I have no more time to waste.

Here's a data which most of the pilots and Air forces confirm or agree with.
In BVR MKI outperforms F-16 block 60 by 15% and F-16 block 52 by 20%
In WVR it outperforms F-16 block 60 by 20-30% and F-16 block 52 by 10-15%
In ground attack capabilities, It outperforms the F-16C Block 52 by 50%
All parameters concerned......the estimates are based on assessment of IAF and Highly classified data from USAF,
and has been verify numerously by a number of fighter pilots and defense analyst from all over the world.
Let's end it here.

Here's an USAF F-16 is caught in HUD

guess the fighter which caught it.




Note; This reply is only for santro and no further/any discussion with anyone would be entertained in this regard.

[DARKY]

Sir,

Can you elaborate on the Anti BVR tactics?.......So far it can evade the incoming missile...or.....jam it......or....run away to exhaust the missile.

In the open air, what else can you do...?

You can perform evasive maneuvers to get out of radar scan/track area......or not let it focus on you and hence you break the lock,
There are a number of maneuvers applied like split-S or half cuban split etc......
However a powerful radar ESA radar with larger scan area and high steering agility negates such things highly effectively.

To over come such disadvantaged situation manufacturers got TVC installed on their engines which helped to negate the disadvantage upto great extent.

An Interesting note in case you don't know........''when the brand new flankers went to airshows around Europe they used to install very powerful ground radars to measure RCS and record the flight/maneuverability of flankers so that they could develop the means to counter the lock breaks the it might put in a BVR engagement due to its super-maneuverability.......what they realized that whenever a cobra maneuver was performed the powerful ESA radars lost the flanker on its screen literally invisible....hence in that case the lock is broken and missile is lost/wasted.

[Pfpilot]

I am no way conceiving Rafale to be a less capable aircraft, but the point in case is that its not about the maturity of an airframe but the adaptability of the airframe which keeps an aircraft in service. We have all seen falcon to evolve from Block 10 to possible Block 70. Isn't that serves as enough proof of how adaptable this aircraft is? What else it can not take? it was the second only fighter after F-22 to have an active AESA. It had adopted to a variety of roles and capabilities evident from a number of variants,munitions and pods it can carry. Its all about adaptability of a technology to an airframe. Falcon has shown that it can go as far as you can push it. Even while reading planned upgrades for typhoon 2020 and most of them are either already present or very much implementable on Falcon. And lastly, an interesting reason why it has still a lot of potential going forward is that it is not only adaptable to operational but also strategic fit required by its operator. It has the potential to serve as both front liner with cutting edge upgrades as well as a backbone fighter being more economical to maintain than Rafale. Recently RAF has to cannibalize its Typhoons to maintain the others due to expensive spare parts. Going forward when 5th Gen export variants will be available in the market, will these platforms be able to adapt the role of secondary/backbone fighters due to their higher maintainance costs, a difficult question to answer keeping they are marketed for being frontline fighters.....

Though I agree with you, we are all hoping PAF moves away from the f-16 and as this happens, its importance in our fleet will decrease...also as the USAF retires f-16s, it seems unlikely they will be up for the radical upgrades that will be required to keep up with the Rafale. We dont have the funds like UAE to upgrade these aircrafts ourselves, while the Indians do have the money to finance the whole upgrade programs for the European fighters if they choose.
So the financial capacity and politics plays a great part in such a scenario, and it virtually guarantees the f-16 will fall behind the Rafale. The Europeans can struggle all they want, but the bulk of these aircraft will probably be assembled in India and I doubt they will show the same amount of complacency shown by the Europeans.

ps. In no way was my last post implying a member of your seniority so I apologize if it came across that way.

[hasnain0099]

Though I agree with you, we are all hoping PAF moves away from the f-16 and as this happens, its importance in our fleet will decrease...also as the USAF retires f-16s, it seems unlikely they will be up for the radical upgrades that will be required to keep up with the Rafale. We dont have the funds like UAE to upgrade these aircrafts ourselves, while the Indians do have the money to finance the whole upgrade programs for the European fighters if they choose.
So the financial capacity and politics plays a great part in such a scenario, and it virtually guarantees the f-16 will fall behind the Rafale. The Europeans can struggle all they want, but the bulk of these aircraft will probably be assembled in India and I doubt they will show the same amount of complacency shown by the Europeans.

I agree that PAF will have to eventually move away from Viper, which it will. but with Induction of Advanced variants of JFT and FC-20, Vipers will take a back seat. What keeps vipers in perspective is that these platforms at current offer higher range than JFT and given the higher Load carrying capability, these platforms ideally complement FC-20 (which would be more of an air superiority platform) in strike role. As the More and more JFTs and FC-20s join in, we may see them performing secondary roles of interception and point defence. Thats what i am talking about, Falcons fit in every single role intended with easy and at economy. Even if JSF arrives, there will be airforces around the world which will keep vipers flying. Even if UAE spent on development of AESA and Block 60, NRG came out with SABR offering the performance of AESA but in the cost of MSA, targeted at economical buyers. Likewise we recently had Night Vision Cueing and Display (NVCD) being offered for F-16. So as long as their are users and buyers, there will be products and developments on offer.

ps. In no way was my last post implying a member of your seniority so I apologize if it came across that way.

A good and healthy debate is always beneficial for both participants so no need for apologize

[notorious_eagle]

Why take effort for a ball action here.. there is no need to put so much effort... it is simple.. You guys are mislead.. You are under military rule almost 60% of the year or more which is a sufficient one.. Your history is tweaked.. your ISI/Army bought all the sensitive publication.. Your ISI/Army brainwashing the innocent uneducated youth towards death.. Cant you understand the simple logic... Your country's state shows what your ISI/Army has done to you all... misleading you everyday ....just telling everything is fine..

People who live in houses made of glass dont throw stones at others . Army/ISI should take a lesson from India as they wrote the book for propaganda, it does not take a genius to figure out how well the Indian Establishment has brainwashed the Indian public. Looking at those Bollywood movies and how Pakistan and Pakistanis are portrayed portrayed, i have lived in Pakistan my whole life and i am yet to find the Pakistan that is portrayed in Bollywood movies. All Indians whom have visited Pakistan have told tails about how welcoming the Pakistani people are, instead the Indian Media portrays us as crazy fanatics whom are hell bent on destroying India.

Dont insult our intelligence, we Pakistanis know what is right and what is wrong. In this modern day and age, anyone can go online and look at different sources to form an opinion. Internet is not blocked in Pakistan and the Media is independent, so stop spreading B.S lies.

Here's an USAF F-16 is caught in HUD

guess the fighter which caught it.

Wonderful, now post the video of the debrief of the Red Flag 2008 where the IAF MKI's got hammered in A2A to the point where they refused to go 1 on 1 against the F16's . Why only post selective evidence?

while some Pakistani members have convinced themselves that the Rafale is merely a European showpiece.

No Pakistani here has convinced themselves of this, its a great fighter and definitely superior to the Block 52 one on one. But frankly, wars are not fought one on one. There are many other factors that have to be taken into account especially in an Indo-Pak War scenario. You would have a good argument that the Rafale would emerge superior if it was going one on one against the Block 52, but PAF is not stupid enough to send the Block 52 without any proper cover.

[Pfpilot]

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hasnain0099,

My worry remains the up and down relationship between Pakistan and US. The SABR AESA is a perfect example of an ideal upgrade in a few years, but would such upgrades even be allowed? The Americans usually have no problem allowing upgrades to f-16s in Europe since they are able to control those nations so thoroughly, or were the Indians to buy them...but when it comes Pakistan, the various US lobbies all work against us.
Which leaves us in a dilemma...we know the block 52s are fairly advanced for now...but lets say 5 years from now the US has left Afghanistan and wants nothing to do with us, will they even allow spares to come are way, much less upgrades to the radar or electronic counter measures suites. The aim-9x along with the new aim-120Ds are game changers and we may never be allowed access to them. So while Rafales and Eurofighters will employ Meteors and next gen short range missiles, our f-16s will be stuck in the early part of this decade.
What you say has great merit, but the Americans have never allowed our relationship to be predictable enough for us to breath easy. And id assume the PAF is betting on this as they procure more advanced jf-17s and j-10s to mask the eventual inadequacies of our f-16 fleet.