FGFA vs J-XX

[ptldM3]

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J-XX will equip with WS engine, no Russian engine.

And no proof that Russian has given its stealth technology to us, and their PAKFA isn't stealthy at all. I doubt that they have even mastered how to make the stealth fighter.

You have no business whatsoever making such claims, unless of course you work for Sukhoi or you're an aerospace engineer that specializes in low observability. Me as well as others including those that work for Sukhoi have discussed the pak-fa, the design, and the science behind it, including creeping waves, edge diffraction, specular reflection, corner reflectors and so on. You are oblivious to these meaning and how they apply to the PAK-FA so please do not comment on matters for which you have no knowledge of, but for a somewhat breif explanation of how radar waves effect surfaces, esspecially those on the PAK-FA see the above post.

But I could be wrong maybe Sukhoi, a company with over 7 decades of experience and thousands of experienced engineers, designers, mathematicians, and other specialists many of which have PhD’s are stupid, perhaps you, ChineseTiger1986 know more than they do, please share your knowledge and I will pass it on to the stupid designers at Sukhoi because apparently all their effort resulted in an aircraft that is "isn't stealthy at all"

By your logic the F-15 Silent Eagle is also not stealthy at all infact with its conventional cylindrical fuselage and conventional wing geometry and intakes it should be even less 'stealth' than the pak-fa. This means that you also know more than the engineers at Boeing and that Boeing was lying when they said that the F-15 Silent Eagle can match the F-35's frontal RCS, despite, and I repeat, despite having exposed intakes and cylindrical fuselage/nose.

The Silent Eagle is not much more than an F-15 with canted vertical tails, weapons bays, treated canopy and RAM coating, but it manages to be 'stealth' by Boeings standards. What your definition of 'stealthy' is conflicting with Sukhoi's and Boing's. And now lets take a look at the so unstealthy F-15 silent eagle.

Of course, they started at an earlier point. However, the collapse of USSR brought them 10-20 years of backward, even their military industry. They even have problems to deploy a SLBM, whereas China has already 6 type 094 in service and working on their next gen SSBN..

The Baluva has been sucessful in its last few tests. To put things in perspective even the American THAAD had around a 50% failure rate when it was being tested, even though it was not a SSBN. You also act as if what China builds is the same as what Russia builds, have you ever considered that the Baluva is more complex than Chinese SSBN's, thus it will have more problems or that maybe just maybe China hids all of its failures?

China is making a huge step further, and Russia keeps feeding on what USSR left for them..

This is an utter nonsense, Russia has develepoed all new weapons systems and continues to do so, everything from new engines such as the 117S to the S-400 air defence system and the Borey submarine, to the Topol-M, and KA-52, and the list goes on. I fail to see what any of these systems or all the other project that Russia is working on has to do with the USSR, other than knowlege which is invaluable.

[nabil_05]

Seems to me the f-22 has a serious rival now.... j-20 internal weapons bay...

j20internalbay.jpg picture by nexeltroop - Photobucket

[ChineseTiger1986]

You have no business whatsoever making such claims, unless of course you work for Sukhoi or you're an aerospace engineer that specializes in low observability.

You don't have to be Einstein in order to figure out this feature is stealthy or not.

Sure, J-20 isn't all stealthy, the canard and the exposed engine at the rear aren't stealthy feature. Yet, i am waiting to see the finalized version.

Same for PAKFA, i am waiting to see the bird being operational. For now, the features of the prototype aren't enough to tell me that Russia has mastered the technology of a stealth fighter.

[kingofkings]

You don't have to be Einstein in order to figure this feature is stealthy or not.

Sure, J-20 isn't all stealthy, the canard and the exposed engine at the rear aren't stealthy feature. Yet, i am waiting to see the finalized version.

Same for PAKFA, i am waiting to see the bird being operational. For now, the features of the prototype aren't enough to tell me that Russia has mastered the technology of a stealth fighter.

Then why this BS !!!!

And no proof that Russian has given its stealth technology to us, and their PAKFA isn't stealthy at all. I doubt that they have even mastered how to make the stealth fighter.

Hope you got the point from your own words.

[Speeder 2]

Like it or not, what Yangwei and Chinese Tiger1986 said were true.

It won't be hard for anyone to understand why.

Think about it: no big power shares its most secret weapon and the most powerful tech knowhow with others. US won't share with anyone, Israel or not, its F-22A let along ToT; China of course won't share its J-20... even France and the EU won't share their most powerful block of Rafale and ET respectively. What they will happilay share wee their TEAM B.

The question is therefore what makes you think that Russia will let India buy its Pak Fa T-50 with all the knowkow and top tech of Russian Air Force use? Perhaps Ruskies are drunk all the time but not dumb.

So why? The answer is very simple. And I don't need to see the detail of PakFa purchasing contract to know it:

What Ruskies did was to design several seperate airframes with the budget they got from India. What it will produce is a minimum borderline "5th gen"to minimumly satisfy that 4s inoder to deliver their words to India: you see, this is 5th gen. Yet Ruskie will only put the second best tech in it, particularly the crucial tech. After India bought it, they would develop their own FAGA according to it. Then it's India's biz, Ruskies can say that thye have delivered the contract. Then later, Russia would put thier best tech into thier own either PaK FA block 2 or completely another airframe thus Indians will have no cliam on it whatsoever according to the old contract.

I will bet my bottom $$$ that Ruskie would doublecross the dumb elephant. Honestly, it is very logical and understandable.


Think about it, ptldM3, what would you personally do in such a scenario?

Therefore, what Yanwei told was blunt truth! Simple !

[ptldM3]

You don't have to be Einstein in order to figure out this feature is stealthy or not.

Dis you read #210 and how radar waves works? How they disipate and the relationship between smooth curvature, creeping waves and leading edge diffraction? If you don't know this do not make claims such as the PAK-FA is not at all stealth. The Einstein argument shows a lack of knowledge. There are many variables in designing an aircraft, infact there is an intire book with detailed equations on how this is done, it's not as simple as 'an angled cerface causes waves to bounces off radar', there is more to it.

And again the F-15 silent eagle disproves your simplistic theory of what 'stealthy' is or what it should look like.

Sure, J-20 isn't all stealthy, the canard and the exposed engine at the rear aren't stealthy feature. Yet, i am waiting to see the finalized version.

I never mentioned the J-20 or ever questioned it's design, the canards have traditionally been problematic to an aircraft's frontal rcs, how much is not know but we do know it posses problems. It's possible that the J-20 over comes this with a combination of a honeycomb like construction, thick RAM and shaping.

And a correction, neither the J-20 nor the PAK-FA have exposed engines, those are simply nozzles, behind the nozzles is a low pressure turbines and behind the low pressure turbines is wear the combustion starts. I don not know about the J-20 but the PAK-FA is said to have ceramic coating inside the nozzles to reduce IR, and Sukhoi has begun research into flat nozzles.

[ptldM3]

Like it or not, what Yangwei and Chinese Tiger1986 said were true.

Like it or not i would rather beleive what the engineers at Sukhoi say rather than those two, mostly because they know specifically how radar waves effect the PAK-FA but also because i have an understanding of science behind it. Sukhoi has been around longer than Chengdu and appearently huzhigeng says this: "There have been Russians working at 611 since the 90s! The Russian engineers at 611 are primarily airframe/structural experts. We are paying them well right now". Russians working for China contributed to the design, so by saying Russians have not yet mastered stealth is somewhat of a backfire statement.

Wei's statement was vague and left to interpretation, he didn't mention what part of the PAK-FA is detrimental. Every feature of the PAK-FA from it's canted vertical tails to sawtooth leading edges and inline intakes are all present in US 'stealth' aircraft. No one knows the specifics of how radar waves interacts with the PAK-FA, including him, nor does he have any idea of what kind of composite absorbers the PAK-FA uses or where they are located, and he certainly doesn't know the PAK-FA's RCS let alone the final RCS. If Wei said the F-35 isn't 'stealthy' or that the Silent Eagle isn't 'stealthy' do you think anyone in their right mind would believe that garbage? I'm willing to bet that Wei is also oblivious to the fact that the Silent Eagle has the same frontal RCS as the F-35, and the Silent Eagle is a comprimise, it is a modified F-15, going by wei's logic the Silent Eagle's RCS is a lie, now the question is how does an aircraft such as the PAK-FA with a superior design to the Silent eagle get dismissed by Wei when something as conventional as the Silent Eagle shows such outstanding performance.

[Speeder 2]

After all, 5th gen's 4s are very flexible and there are no objective definitions.

SuperManoeuvrability? Ruskies can easily deliver that but what is 5th gen Manoeuvrability at what speed doing what? no one knows. Short-take off? what distance? Stealth? what's the standard of it? No one can say for certain.

So as long as Russia can deliver a minimum degree of supercruise ( which they can easily do with that flattened Su27 frame - so called "Pak Fa T-50 1st prototype", powered by 117s) and reasonable RCS reduction plus some RAM ( "stealthy", slightly better than ET, rafale etc 4+ gen), it can then say to India see this is "5th gen". In fact, it could be 4.6 gen, 4.78 gen. 4.82 gen... no one could take Ruskies to an int'l court for any disagreement on those with ambiguous terms. What India would do then? Cry?

After India bought it, Indians could then try to copy -paste their own FAGA according to it. Then whatever happens later would be India's biz, Ruskies can say that they have delivered the contract. LThen later , Russia would put the best tech into their own either PaK FA block 2 or completely another airframe thus Indians will have no claim on it whatsoever according to the old contract.


By the same token, China's J-20 can be said, with almost certainty, to be technologically superior to "Pak FA" (what India buys).

However, no one will know how J-20 would be compared with the true Russia No1 5th gen ( Pak Fa Block 2 or possiblely another airframe )- what Russian Air Force would actually use later as their top fighter.

[Speeder 2]

Like it or not i would rather beleive what the engineers at Sukhoi say rather than those two, mostly because they know specifically how radar waves effect the PAK-FA but also because i have an understanding of science behind it. Sukhoi has been around longer than Chengdu and appearently huzhigeng says this: "There have been Russians working at 611 since the 90s! The Russian engineers at 611 are primarily airframe/structural experts. We are paying them well right now". Russians working for China contributed to the design, so by saying Russians have not yet mastered stealth is somewhat of a backfire statement.

some good sources of chinese forums I've read saif that those Russians working for 611 are primirily Structural experts, not stealth tech one.

btw, have you read what I wrote? do you ever think?

Pak Fa is a smoke screen. Whether it's 5th gen or 4.6 gen ( no one can judge as long as it has arguable "4s", minimum though) doesn't matter to Russia at all. Russia won't give a hoot about it. It is no more than a commercial deal to make $$$, got it?

Russia will not put all its best eggs in it for a third party ( India) to buy and copy. And it's all right cuz it's a basic National Security measure for any big power. C'mon!

[cross1993]

F22:


J20:


T50:

[cross1993]

PLA
So said, so done.
Don't worry about WS-15

[cw2005]

If history was any guidance, all out war started only when one country believes they have chance to win such all out war. Just look at Japan and Germany in the 2nd world war and currently the Israelis.

To avoid an all out war between India and China, India should immediately raise its head from the sand, finding out their problem, tackling them quickly and coming up with big step improvement.

I even believe what Pakistan has been doing in improving its military capability makes possible peace between India and Pakistan.

It is now obvious that high tech items such as JF-17, J10A, B, J11B, D21, 054a J20 ETC came out last decade in China did not just happen. It must be tens of year hard work and research leading to these. And I afraid this is only the beginning of harvesting in China.

[SomeGuy]

Not to mention very large dimensions compared to the American F-22 Raptor.

It's already been shown by others that J-20 is about 19-20 meters long - even less if you consider that the sweep of the tail adds on about a meter or so. This is roughly same length as PAK-FA and F-22.

Please keep up

[cross1993]

China simply has no intention nor the facility to start a war for the foreseeable future. No good will come out of any wild prediction.
China just wants to develop itself to better prosperity for its people.

[cross1993]

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Sigh....some people just can not stand a peaceful world.
In the brief periods when they themselves are not busy waging wars or enslaving entire continents, they start sowing seeds of dissension among others.