In tears, in loneliness: PM Hasina & Rehana while publishing father's book

[Loki]

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Women usually fail at being heads of state.

[whythiskolaveridi]

can somebody tell me why the BD people are against AL govt or Hasina's efforts in improving relations with India. Any country would like to have cordial and friendly relations with its neighbour. So, instead of appreciating the efforts of BD govt why it is being opposed?

As far as I know India or common Indians never see BD as a hostile country then why there is so much of dislike for Indian people/

Can any sensible Bdesi answer please without spitting venom??

[Loki]

can somebody tell me why the BD people are against AL govt or Hasina's efforts in improving relations with India. Any country would like to have cordial and friendly relations with its neighbour. So, instead of appreciating the efforts of BD govt why it is being opposed?

As far as I know India or common Indians never see BD as a hostile country then why there is so much of dislike for Indian people/

Can any sensible Bdesi answer please without spitting venom??

The AL are not very popular for many reasons.

[whythiskolaveridi]

The AL are not very popular for many reasons.

Our govt is not very popular also but that does not make us hate BD people.

[Loki]

Our govt is not very popular also but that does not make us hate BD people.

I'm afraid it's quite different here.

[BJFP]

Women usually fail at being heads of state.

I agree with you, but only because of my medicine background. I think women are capable of leadership but they're not created to withstand the demand that they are expected to fulfill. Their hormone levels fluctuate every month and it gets worse after menopause and that affects their mental clarity and decision making capabilities.

[Loki]

I agree with you, but only because of my medicine background. I think women are capable of leadership but they're not created to withstand the demand that they are expected to fulfill. Their hormone levels fluctuate every month and it gets worse after menopause and that affects their mental clarity and decision making capabilities.

I did say usually.

Leaders like Margaret Thatcher (AKA "Iron Margaret") and Angela Merkel served their nations well.

[whythiskolaveridi]

I agree with you, but only because of my medicine background. I think women are capable of leadership but they're not created to withstand the demand that they are expected to fulfill. Their hormone levels fluctuate every month and it gets worse after menopause and that affects their mental clarity and decision making capabilities.

History has nothing to suggest this. All women rulers, PM, Presidents were damn successful and still are. Can you give any example against it or it's just that a case of male chauvinism, and this coming from a Doctor or medical professional is surprising.

[Loki]

History has nothing to suggest this. All women rulers, PM, Presidents were damn successful and still are. Can you give any example against it or it's just that a case of male chauvinism, and this coming from a Doctor or medical professional is surprising.

Well, even Indira Gandhi wasn't great either

It's nothing to do with male chauvinism. It's just an observation.

[BJFP]

History has nothing to suggest this. All women rulers, PM, Presidents were damn successful and still are. Can you give any example against it or it's just that a case of male chauvinism, and this coming from a Doctor or medical professional is surprising.

No you got me wrong, it's based on observation, by no means I am anti-feminists. As medical professionals we are trained to observe a persons behavior and draw up conclusion based on secientific facts.

[M_Saint]

you may not know this but currently most top secretarial positions are currently held by hindus in bangladesh. Even sonali bank's chairman is a ghoti. One of the top 5 guy of BTCL is a ghoti.. Even all top shot agents (dalals) are currently ghotis. I met one ghoti who has a condo in bombay, one in calcutta and one in dhaka. Very highly connected with literally every ministry and secretarial position. He even has connections with a highly top politician of India (not naming names) Now you be the judge what all of them are (wink) (wink) . Its pretty bad in dhaka at the moment.

So many spiritual and religious leaders were right while commenting on enforcing slavery on us with the creation of BD (BTW, no disrespect to any true freedom fighter that believed in his cause). They were right on opposing Pakistan’s creation as well (Not degrading any Pakistani believer either). It seems, "Gariber Kotha Bashi Hole e Valo kore Fole".

[M_Saint]

M_Saint Bhai, appreciate your comments. I could be wrong on my opinion:

- majority of Bengali's in East Pakistan switched their aspiration from autonomy to independence after the commencement of Operation Searchlight

The basis for making that comment is that during disarming of Bengali police, EPR and armed forces personnel, many were killed by Pakistan Army and that led to a general revolt by these armed professionals and Zia made the declaration of independence on behalf of Mujib on March 27, 1971

Akmal Bhai was in West Pakistan during this time, you were too young, but if we have older members like asad71 bhai who were present, would probably remember that since the commencement of Operation Searchlight on the night of 1971, the common folks felt that they were being attacked and were under siege. It is hard to judge what portion of the people felt in what way as we cannot go back and interview them or run a poll, but we can just make some educated guess I suppose. So, that is all my opinion is, an educated guess.

But one thing we know is that from that point on, Mukti Bahini got popular support among the masses, without which the war could not be ended so quickly, even with later invasion of Indian Armed forces in Dec. 1971.

We need to make a list of reference books for 1971 war research. May be Akmal Bhai and M_Saint Bhai can post in the 1971 related sticky thread, so we can work on that book-list?

I found the "Blood and Tears" book online, here is where I posted it:
Role of Indian Intelligence Bureau (IB) and R&AW in East Pakistan 1963-1971

Kalu Bhai, among all the books available on 71's saga,"The way it was" had the best war documentary IMO. And it was written none but Brigadier Z Alam Khan, who led Mujib's arrest. Someone here posted very descriptive interview of his regard his empirical experience in it. I believed that he was right on the money at his assessment. Would you please go over the portion related to the run up of the war to find out what caused what?


QUESTION TO Z ALAM
What do you say about the assertion that the seeds of secession of East Pakistan were sown in the 1960s and by the 1970 events had crossed the point of no return?


AND HIS ANSWER
There were several reasons for the secession of East Pakistan. The biggest reason was Gandhi was able to stop the riots in East Pakistan which prevented the Hindus from being driven out to India, these Hindus were denied government jobs, they became school teachers, college professors, lawyers, businessmen, smugglers etc, they influenced the minds of the Bengalis against Pakistan.


There was a vast cultural difference between West Pakistanis and East Pakistanis and a thousand miles which separated the wings prevented any close association, the official language became an issue immediately after independence and because of the language East and West Pakistanis felt like foreigners in each other’s wings.In 1952-54 my father was posted to East Pakistan, when he returned he told us that East Pakistan would secede.


I was told by an American senator in 1965 that East Pakistan would secede, when I had never considered it possible. My younger brother Squadron Leader Shuaib after serving in East Pakistan told us East Pakistanis were saying that West Pakistan would separate from East Pakistan because of the economic disparity. The events of the 1960s and 1970s were the culmination, there was nothing common except religion, East Pakistan should have been separate state from the beginning.


Source: Brig (rtd) Zahir Alam Khan Interview- 1971 war Vetern

[M_Saint]

@ It was a pre-emptive killing while dis-arming them.

@ In some cantonments like Jessore the Pakistani officers just said to the Bengali officers and troops to go out of the Cantonment and they fled away. In Rangpur Cantonment 5 x Bengali officers were kept arrested till June/july 1971 and one day they were allowed for shopping at the town with the consent that they might fled away. And actually all fled away and went to Sheligorri.

@ But again once the news started comming that Bengali soldiers are killing the West Pakistani Officers and soldiers including their families while dis-arming them in the Bengal Regiments the Pakistan Army also started killing and took the revence. It was a two way killing but majority of Bengali soldiers were killed. My assumption is that it will not cross 5 to 6 thousand soldiers.

Akmal Bhai, there was no denying that W Pakistanis used overwhelming force against us, the Bengalis in the first few weeks but who drew the first blood to drum the situation up to that magnitude bagged an important question IMO. The following lines are from Brigadier Z Alam's narration in that regard,

Question to Z Alam
What do you have to say about the issue of “atrocities” committed by both sides in the Civil War period as you saw it in East Pakistan in 1971?

AND HIS ANSWER IS
The Bengalis (Please read RAWamy Thugs) went berserk with the announcement of the postponement of the National Assembly meeting.


The Biharis suffered the most, entire colonies were wiped out, West Pakistanis serving in small cities and rural areas were killed. One ex-SSG officer serving in a East Bengal Regiment was said to have been put in a pot and boiled in the urine of the men of the battalion.


A 8 East Bengal Regiment officer, wounded and captured near Kaptai, described how West Pakistani girls were stripped naked and made to serve food in their officers mess and provide other services. I witnessed the atrocities committed in Chittagong, drums of human blood were collected, we came across four areas where non- Bengalis had been decapitated or shot and left, some in the open, some half buried, photographing of such scenes was forbidden; my book “The Way It Was” has one picture.The other side of the coin.


The troops knew about the atrocities committed by the Bengalis, when the military action started it was not declared an “aid to civil power action” no one cautioned the troops to use minimum force, every commander, from the section commander upwards, used his discretion.During the initial military action commanders were faced with disarming and holding the disarmed Bengali soldiers, some officers resorted to killing. My wife and other people describe the killing of Bengali officers and men in Comilla cantonment. (17 officers and 915 men according to the Hamoodur Rehman Commission).In Chittagong the West Pakistani labour followed the army and as an area was cleared, they indiscriminately looted all houses.Arrival of troops from West Pakistan always was discernible by indiscriminate firing at night because they believed they were being attacked by guerrillas and indiscriminate looting in the day time.



I placed a Supply and Transport second lieutenant under arrest for looting in Chittagong with two soldiers. When troops arrived from West Pakistan they considered areas under our control “free for all”. 39 Baluch when it arrived in Comilla cantonment and was housed next door to 3 Commando lines, looted our lines which our men had left in a hurry leaving their belongings in barracks.Rape occurred, troops detached under NCOs and on patrols were the culprits.



The claim that a vast number of women had been raped was disproved by the ‘abortion team’ sent by the sympathetic and gullible British, whose workload involved the termination of only 100 pregnancies. Atrocities committed by the Bengalis were completely blacked out by the government of Pakistan, atrocities were committed by our troops but they were nothing compared to what the Bengalis had done. The Bengalis exaggerated them to gain the world’s sympathy and assistance.



Source: Brig (rtd) Zahir Alam Khan Interview- 1971 war Vetern

I.E. In 'The way it was', he described some case by case incidents and I believed him, especially on the basis of RAWamys not showing any efforts on putting W Pakistanis on trial. What you get to say on it, please?

[whythiskolaveridi]

Akmal Bhai, there was no denying that W Pakistanis used overwhelming force against us, the Bengalis in the first few weeks but who drew the first blood to drum the situation up to that magnitude bagged an important question IMO. The following lines are from Brigadier Z Alam's narration in that regard,

Question to Z Alam
What do you have to say about the issue of “atrocities” committed by both sides in the Civil War period as you saw it in East Pakistan in 1971?

AND HIS ANSWER IS
The Bengalis (Please read RAWamy Thugs) went berserk with the announcement of the postponement of the National Assembly meeting.


The Biharis suffered the most, entire colonies were wiped out, West Pakistanis serving in small cities and rural areas were killed. One ex-SSG officer serving in a East Bengal Regiment was said to have been put in a pot and boiled in the urine of the men of the battalion.


A 8 East Bengal Regiment officer, wounded and captured near Kaptai, described how West Pakistani girls were stripped naked and made to serve food in their officers mess and provide other services. I witnessed the atrocities committed in Chittagong, drums of human blood were collected, we came across four areas where non- Bengalis had been decapitated or shot and left, some in the open, some half buried, photographing of such scenes was forbidden; my book “The Way It Was” has one picture.The other side of the coin.


The troops knew about the atrocities committed by the Bengalis, when the military action started it was not declared an “aid to civil power action” no one cautioned the troops to use minimum force, every commander, from the section commander upwards, used his discretion.During the initial military action commanders were faced with disarming and holding the disarmed Bengali soldiers, some officers resorted to killing. My wife and other people describe the killing of Bengali officers and men in Comilla cantonment. (17 officers and 915 men according to the Hamoodur Rehman Commission).In Chittagong the West Pakistani labour followed the army and as an area was cleared, they indiscriminately looted all houses.Arrival of troops from West Pakistan always was discernible by indiscriminate firing at night because they believed they were being attacked by guerrillas and indiscriminate looting in the day time.



I placed a Supply and Transport second lieutenant under arrest for looting in Chittagong with two soldiers. When troops arrived from West Pakistan they considered areas under our control “free for all”. 39 Baluch when it arrived in Comilla cantonment and was housed next door to 3 Commando lines, looted our lines which our men had left in a hurry leaving their belongings in barracks.Rape occurred, troops detached under NCOs and on patrols were the culprits.



The claim that a vast number of women had been raped was disproved by the ‘abortion team’ sent by the sympathetic and gullible British, whose workload involved the termination of only 100 pregnancies. Atrocities committed by the Bengalis were completely blacked out by the government of Pakistan, atrocities were committed by our troops but they were nothing compared to what the Bengalis had done. The Bengalis exaggerated them to gain the world’s sympathy and assistance.



Source: Brig (rtd) Zahir Alam Khan Interview- 1971 war Vetern

I.E. In 'The way it was', he described some case by case incidents and I believed him, especially on the basis of RAWamys not showing any efforts on putting W Pakistanis on trial. What you get to say on it, please?

I would request you to quote neutral sources. A lot has been said against the Pak Army and the West pakistani by the Indian authors and Awamis. Naturally, the pakistani authors would have different views. However, most of your own authors have admitted genocide of civilians and Bengali officers prior to the liberation war in East Pakistan.

Never ever the History of two sides will match for obvious reasons. But the fact remains that Bangladesh was carved out of Pakistan with the full support of Bengalis. Had there been no support from majority, Bangladesh would not have been a reality. You are insulting those Bengali freedom fighters who gave life and blood for the country.

Today AL is in power and is trying to improve relations with its neighbouring countries which any civilised nation will do. But it's surprising to see that some 'foreign powers' are against it and unfortunately some brainwashed Bengalis have also been against the Indo-Bangla relation. These fanatics are merely damaging their country and actually have no regard for their countrymen.

Be a tool to the development and peace in your country rather than a pain in the @$$.

[kalu_miah]

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I would request you to quote neutral sources. A lot has been said against the Pak Army and the West pakistani by the Indian authors and Awamis. Naturally, the pakistani authors would have different views. However, most of your own authors have admitted genocide of civilians and Bengali officers prior to the liberation war in East Pakistan.

Never ever the History of two sides will match for obvious reasons. But the fact remains that Bangladesh was carved out of Pakistan with the full support of Bengalis. Had there been no support from majority, Bangladesh would not have been a reality. You are insulting those Bengali freedom fighters who gave life and blood for the country.

Today AL is in power and is trying to improve relations with its neighbouring countries which any civilised nation will do. But it's surprising to see that some 'foreign powers' are against it and unfortunately some brainwashed Bengalis have also been against the Indo-Bangla relation. These fanatics are merely damaging their country and actually have no regard for their countrymen.

Be a tool to the development and peace in your country rather than a pain in the @$$.

You are completely off the mark. I will not give a reply to your post, but will rather point you to this thread:
Role of Indian Intelligence Bureau (IB) and R&AW in East Pakistan 1963-1971