Indian democracy loses to Chinese efficiency - by 160 votes

[chanakya123]

Originally Posted by chauism

Contrary to your belief, I spent most of my life in a so-call democratic society that proclaim itself as the world's freedom fighter. It is just its hypocrisies that hides besides the facade of democracy made me hard to embrace its ideals.

You guess what? thats why china has communist one party government because the people of china likes it. And indian people likes democracy. Simple isn't it? Everything has its own pros n cons. so what to argue over this?
You just don't like democracy and capitalism, and we just don't like communism. You want to grow on your term and we want at ours.

May be you will be fast and we will be slow but we believe in no short cuts. The people of india has given the mandate and very clearly we have rejected left parties.

[chauism]

Originally Posted by chanakya123

You guess what? thats why china has communist one party government because the people of china likes it. And indian people likes democracy. Simple isn't it? Everything has its own pros n cons. so what to argue over this?
You just don't like democracy and capitalism, and we just don't like communism. You want to grow on your term and we want at ours.

May be you will be fast and we will be slow but we believe in no short cuts. The people of india has given the mandate and very clearly we have rejected left parties.

Who says anything about capitalism and communism? No one in his right mind will say that Chinese economy is a communist one, some say that China is even more capitalist than the US.

[gpit]

Originally Posted by PeacefulIndian

...

Guess that sums up the difference between our thinkings. You talk about keeping the citizens 'productive'. I talk of keeping them 'happy'. Obvious from your contentions, that you want everyone to be happy with your government's policies. If they are not, its their problem & they should get categorized as 'non productive'. Achieveing national goals with whatever price is not something we prefer. Agreed that it makes us slow. But that slowness is worth it. That is the indian way of doing it.

Why then your system has failed in keeping your citizens happy? In fact, China ranks 31 in happiness, India only in 90th place. Happy Planet Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It wouldn't be unreasonable to surmise that India's human rights would be in fact worse than China's.

And yes, you are not a tyranny. But you do not deny the rampant corruption in CPC, do you?

There are rampant corruptions in China, but India's corruption is even more rampant!

Why your much boasted system fails again to check that?

[psugumar]

Originally Posted by chauism

Who says anything about capitalism and communism? No one in his right mind will say that Chinese economy is a communist one, some say that China is even more capitalist than the US.

This is really funny!!! China is more capitalist than US !!!

Do you at least know the meaning of capitalism ? China is a closed economy than India, its completely isolated and protected from banking to agriculture...

[psugumar]

Communism lost to Capitalism decades back !!! China trying to show as if they are communist, nothing more lest for communism, If you check the election results of India where more than those participated in Royal Geographical Society,it proves what Communists deserve ...

[chanakya123]

Originally Posted by gpit

Why then your system has failed in keeping your citizens happy? In fact, China ranks 31 in happiness, India only in 90th place. Happy Planet Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It wouldn't be unreasonable to surmise that India's human rights would be in fact worse than China's.



There are rampant corruptions in China, but India's corruption is even more rampant!



Why your much boasted system fails again to check that?

Well may be you are right, but this doesn't mean that communism is the solution. May be the democracy is still not working effectively as it works in USA.

[chauism]

Originally Posted by psugumar

This is really funny!!! China is more capitalist than US !!!

Do you at least know the meaning of capitalism ? China is a closed economy than India, its completely isolated and protected from banking to agriculture...

I did not come up with this. Since I don't have the clearance to post link yet, why don't you just google the word "China more capitalist than the US"? See how many articles are talking about it.

An open economy is an economy in which people, including businesses, can trade in goods and services with other people and businesses in the international community at large. This contrasts with a closed economy in which international trade cannot take place.

By this definition China is definitely not a closed economy, its volume of international trading $2.4 trillion dwarfs India's $294 billion.

India ranked 120th on the Ease of Doing Business Index 2008, behind countries such as China (83rd), Pakistan (86th), and Nigeria (108th).

The only thing that India is doing a little better is on the economic freedom of world index 2008 while China is ranked at 93th, India is ranked at 77th. So you better get your facts right, didn't they teach international economics in India? Also have you learned that the isolation of China's banking sector is exactly what shield s China from this wall street financial tsunami? So I think most people wouldn't think it is a such bad idea.

[psugumar]

Originally Posted by chauism

I did not come up with this. Since I don't have the clearance to post link yet, why don't you just google the word "China more capitalist than the US"? See how many articles are talking about it.


By this definition China is definitely not a closed economy, its volume of international trading $2.4 trillion dwarfs India's $294 billion.

India ranked 120th on the Ease of Doing Business Index 2008, behind countries such as China (83rd), Pakistan (86th), and Nigeria (108th).

The only thing that India is doing a little better is on the economic freedom of world index 2008 while China is ranked at 93th, India is ranked at 77th. So you better get your facts right, didn't they teach international economics in India? Also have you learned that the isolation of China's banking sector is exactly what shield s China from this wall street financial tsunami? So I think most people wouldn't think it is a such bad idea.

I request you to please search "China a closed economy in google" .I completely agree with you that India is not doing better if you compare with China, But You are under dictatorship and not democracy . Its very easy to get things done in a dictator ship but in India , a big company like TATA had to suffer for opening a car factory in West Bangal and our people have taught them what they wanted in West bengal election. I am sure your people do not have the choice.

Please post me some link if you deny these

Is Chinese Banking system is open that foreign banks can freely operate ?

Is currency convertibility allowed in China?

Is you money value controlled by Market or by government?

Do you allow Corporate farming by foreign companies?

Have you opened retail sector to be operated by Global players?

Is your defense sector opened for private companies ?

What about telecom ?

What kind of restrictions you have for FII ?

I have lot many to ask, I am sure if you find answers for them you might get to know how closed your economy is. I would say even India is more open than China.

If trading with other countries makes you a open market all the countries are capitalist . You can say "China is more depend on its foreign trade that any change in world economy affects you". There is nothing else that makes you a open economy.

You cannot understand the power of people until and unless you are given a chance , We do have all sort of problems but ultimately we decide who should rule us , once in 5 years . Last time we permitted communists getting payroll from China to rule our country , This time we could realize our fault and throw them out. Growth will be slower if "choices" made but its stronger.

[chauism]

Originally Posted by psugumar

I request you to please search "China a closed economy in google" .I completely agree with you that India is not doing better if you compare with China, But You are under dictatorship and not democracy . Its very easy to get things done in a dictator ship but in India , a big company like TATA had to suffer for opening a car factory in West Bangal and our people have taught them what they wanted in West bengal election. I am sure your people do not have the choice.

I did google it, and guess what, the only article I find that has any relevance reads something like "Is be China a Closed economy?"
China a closed economy
Is China a Closed economy?

. You better do some homework before you make such statement.
Here are the links that I should provide in the last post.
Is China now more capitalist than the US?
Capitalist China, Socialist America?
China: Capitalism Doesn't Require Democracy
Is China's Authoritarian Capitalism Better Than Liberal Democracy

Originally Posted by psugumar

Please post me some link if you deny these

Is Chinese Banking system is open that foreign banks can freely operate ?
Foreign banks has been operating in P.R.China long time ago, they just were not allowed to handle RMB account. In 2007, Citigroup, HSBC, Standard and Charter and Bank of East Asia were allowed to handle ordinary RMB account as Chinese Banks, I think there are more coming. 4 Foreign Banks Offer Services in China

Is currency convertibility allowed in China?
Yes, but there are certain restrictions. You can go to the official currency conversion web page for the detail.

Is you money value controlled by Market or by government?
Its value is controlled by governments.

Do you allow Corporate farming by foreign companies?
I don't know what do you mean exactly, but in China farmland are actually owned by farmers as well as the crops that grows on it. History of agriculture in the People's Republic of China

Have you opened retail sector to be operated by Global players?
Can you tell me which major global players is not in China right now? Hint:Walmart, Carrefour, IKEA, Stable, Target, Lotus, Best Buy...(just to name few that within 10 KM radius of where I live in China.

Is your defense sector opened for private companies ?
So the government can waste money on things that they don't really want to buy and won't work when you really need them, and the politicians can become rich by taking kickback from those private companies' lobbyists.
No, thank you for your advice.

What about telecom ?
This I actually have to give to you. The market is being monopolized by the SOE, and even though hardware wise China is among one of the best and the quality is not bad either, but the price is still a rip off. But again communication is something the government will never let it go.

What kind of restrictions you have for FII?
I didn't look into the detail myself, I believe there is many restrictions, but tell me which institutional investors does not have its presents in China?

Originally Posted by psugumar

If trading with other countries makes you a open market all the countries are capitalist . You can say "China is more depend on its foreign trade that any change in world economy affects you". There is nothing else that makes you a open economy.

Since you are the one calling China's economy a communist one. Here are some informations for you from wikipedia.
Economy of the People's Republic of China
In case you don't understand the concept of communism, capitalism and open economy. Here are some definitions from wiki as will.
Open economy
Capitalism
Communism

Originally Posted by psugumar

You cannot understand the power of people until and unless you are given a chance , We do have all sort of problems but ultimately we decide who should rule us , once in 5 years . Last time we permitted communists getting payroll from China to rule our country , This time we could realize our fault and throw them out. Growth will be slower if "choices" made but its stronger.

Satisfaction with Life Index
This might tell you something about the people. Just look where China is and where India is.

Trust me people don't really know what they really want, otherwise you wouldn't be so happy to tell me that you got congress back in the government. You just forgot it was the same people that cast them out before.

[PeacefulIndian]

Originally Posted by gpit

Why then your system has failed in keeping your citizens happy? In fact, China ranks 31 in happiness, India only in 90th place. Happy Planet Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do not seem to comprehend my message. I have already asserted that your authoritative system keeps you 10 – 15 years ahead of us, excepting the defense field may be. And your standard of Happiness Index is irrelevant here. This is from your link.

As such, the HPI is not a measure of which are the happiest countries in the world…….Each country’s HPI value is a function of its average subjective life satisfaction, life expectancy at birth, and ecological footprint per capita. The exact function is a little more complex, but conceptually it approximates multiplying life satisfaction and life expectancy, and dividing that by the ecological footprint.

Now where does it take into account the human right policies of the government?

It wouldn't be unreasonable to surmise that India's human rights would be in fact worse than China's.

US ranks at 150. Is their human right record worse than yours & ours? As mentioned above, your index does not take into account the human rights factor. Why troll without any logic?

India’s HPI suffers due to high rates of malnutrition & poverty. And as I already mentioned, we are well on the way to eliminate it & will catch you there in another 10 – 15 years. Our system has not failed as you indicate, it is just a bit inefficient as of now which I already admitted.

And it does not take into consideration the social unrest factor as well. Your social unrest has reached a peak in 2009, and ‘mass incidents’ (riots) are increasing, owing mostly to your government policies. Fallout of having an authoritative regime, with no chance of situation getting better with same mode of governance.

China News: China Seen Facing Wave of Unrest in 2009 | China Digital Times (CDT)

[psugumar]

"Foreign banks has been operating in P.R.China long time ago, they just were not allowed to handle RMB account. In 2007, Citigroup, HSBC, Standard and Charter and Bank of East Asia were allowed to handle ordinary RMB account as Chinese Banks, I think there are more coming. 4 Foreign Banks Offer Services in China"

Yes foreign banks are operating in China but they are "Chinese banks" , They are completely separated by the way they operate, I mean they can bring in money but cannot take money out of your country.

"Is currency convertibility allowed in China?
Yes, but there are certain restrictions. You can go to the official currency conversion web page for the detail."

Kid ,every country allows currency conversion, this is what I meant to tell you
China takes steps towards full convertibility of the yuan


"Is you money value controlled by Market or by government?
Its value is controlled by governments."

Yes ,That means you are manipulating the currency .

Do you allow Corporate farming by foreign companies?
I don't know what do you mean exactly, but in China farmland are actually owned by farmers as well as the crops that grows on it. History of agriculture in the People's Republic of China
Corporate farming is to allow the corporates to buy lands inside your country and do farming.


What kind of restrictions you have for FII?
I didn't look into the detail myself, I believe there is many restrictions, but tell me which institutional investors does not have its presents in China?



This is my summary

Open market is nothing but you open your market and allow the inflow and outflow of foreign money. You do not have any restriction for inflow, but you have a lot of restriction for outflow.
Because you are scarred "What if my money goes out".

US is a open market, thats the reason why you could take their money out very easily, in open market you face crisis like sub prime because you have less restrictions for corporates.Money can do anything there but not in China.
I am trying to tell you ,YOU ARE STILL PROTECTING YOUR ECONOMY FROM WESTERN WORLD.


I do not know why you have given me links of Chinese economy and about communism ,What are you trying to say?
If you do not know , my one line explanation for communism and capitalism

" Communism - being socialistic, Capitalism - being selfish" Do you disagree?

I do not know why you have given me the satisfaction of life index of India and China, I have already told you growth in a democracy is slower but stronger,because we have choice to make and you do not have, I do not understand what are you trying to say ?


You are in closed box, Most of the countries are democratic , communism lost to capitalism long back and it does not exist now and will be flushed out like Nazism. If you are really compare Indian "democracy" with Chinese "fake communism" there is nothing in common and you cannot compare . If you compare the economy I agree you are doing better than us ! no doubt ...

[chauism]

Originally Posted by psugumar

Yes foreign banks are operating in China but they are "Chinese banks" , They are completely separated by the way they operate, I mean they can bring in money but cannot take money out of your country.

Oh, really! Now I am wondering why they try so hard to try to do business in China then since the money they make can not take out. So what is the point of doing business in China?

Originally Posted by psugumar

"Is you money value controlled by Market or by government?
Its value is controlled by governments."

Yes ,That means you are manipulating the currency .

Can you read? Its value is not only controlled by Chinese government, but other governments as well. It is manipulated not only for the interests of the Chinese government, but for some other governments as well(Hint:US, EU).

Originally Posted by psugumar

Open market is nothing but you open your market and allow the inflow and outflow of foreign money. You do not have any restriction for inflow, but you have a lot of restriction for outflow.
Because you are scarred "What if my money goes out".


" Communism - being socialistic, Capitalism - being selfish" Do you disagree?


I do not know why you have given me links of Chinese economy and about communism ,What are you trying to say?
If you do not know , my one line explanation for communism and capitalism

This is actually the reason I give you the links of capitalism and communism. You lack the basic understanding of those definitions. You have a very narrow view of everything about economy unless you think that your understanding is more accurate than dictionary or encyclopedia.
Definition of Open Economy

Definition: Definition of Open Economy: An economy is said to be open if it has trade with other economies. (Implicitly these are usually assumed to be countries.)

One measure of a country's openness is the fraction of its GDP devoted to imports and exports. (Econterms)

Originally Posted by psugumar

I do not know why you have given me the satisfaction of life index of India and China, I have already told you growth in a democracy is slower but stronger,because we have choice to make and you do not have, I do not understand what are you trying to say ?

US is a open market, thats the reason why you could take their money out very easily, in open market you face crisis like sub prime because you have less restrictions for corporates.Money can do anything there but not in China.
I am trying to tell you ,YOU ARE STILL PROTECTING YOUR ECONOMY FROM WESTERN WORLD.


You are in closed box, Most of the countries are democratic , communism lost to capitalism long back and it does not exist now and will be flushed out like Nazism. If you are really compare Indian "democracy" with Chinese "fake communism" there is nothing in common and you cannot compare . If you compare the economy I agree you are doing better than us ! no doubt ...

Oh, boy!!! Do you read any of my links at all? Democracy has nothing to do with capitalism as China has proven to the world. You think money is not important in China? Think again, and think hard!!!! Money is the only thing that matters for people in China, People in China embrace the idea too well, the only thing divide between people are money, not class or anything else. Money can get you anything in China, and sometimes money has more power in China than anywhere else in the world.

If you think China's economy is so closed, then can you explain to me why so many foreign companies are waiting in a line to do business in China? Don't tell me they are doing charity works here. I don't think I need to teach you the difference between FDI of China and India.

[chauism]

Originally Posted by PeacefulIndian

You do not seem to comprehend my message. I have already asserted that your authoritative system keeps you 10 – 15 years ahead of us, excepting the defense field may be. And your standard of Happiness Index is irrelevant here. This is from your link.

Now where does it take into account the human right policies of the government?

India’s HPI suffers due to high rates of malnutrition & poverty. And as I already mentioned, we are well on the way to eliminate it & will catch you there in another 10 – 15 years. Our system has not failed as you indicate, it is just a bit inefficient as of now which I already admitted.

I think too that HPI is not a very accurate assessment of anything. However Satisfaction with Life Index is a much better indication of how content people are in each country. It looks people in China is still happier than the people in India. Guess what, human right policies of the government does matters very little if the government is doing the right thing.

If you admit that which one is more efficient, then let do a simple maths. In 10 yeas time, don't think you the gap will be 15 to 20 year, and in 20 years the gap will be 20 to 25 years. Here is the reason why. India's GDP sinks

Don't forget that not too long ago, India's GDP was the same if not bigger than China's, and look where it is now.

Originally Posted by PeacefulIndian

And it does not take into consideration the social unrest factor as well. Your social unrest has reached a peak in 2009, and ‘mass incidents’ (riots) are increasing, owing mostly to your government policies. Fallout of having an authoritative regime, with no chance of situation getting better with same mode of governance.

China News: China Seen Facing Wave of Unrest in 2009 | China Digital Times (CDT)

Don't put your faith on this too much. China Digital Times is run by bunch of amateur journalist students at UC Berkeley. It is nothing more than a school news paper. In case you don't know, for political and social news about China, I don't believe Chinese news outlets as much as I don't believe western news outlets at surface. If you want to know the truth, there are more analysis need t be done.

[Joe Shearer]

Originally Posted by chauism

So, you just assume the development will stop once China has lift its poor people out of poverty, and for 15 years it will just sit there and do nothing? Yes, in the ideal world India's democracy is the best bet, but as Sir Charles Powell said it is just "wishful thinking" in the real world.

Since we are talking about efficiency here, have you thought about why there is no democracy in the corporate world. The decisions are always made by the CEO and the board of the directors. Can you imagine how messy and chaotic it will be if those important decisions are made through a democratic systems?

Dear Sir,

An interesting analogy. However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the possibility of a trade-off between efficiency and short-term results on the one hand and viability and long-term survival on the other.

As a former CEO (multiple occasions) and member of several boards, may I be allowed to point out that very few companies survive on nearly the same time-scale as countries?

Of course, this does not gainsay the arguments on either side. This may be considered as one more data point.

Regards,
'Joe S.'

[chauism]

Originally Posted by Joe Shearer

Dear Sir,

An interesting analogy. However, I was under the impression that we were discussing the possibility of a trade-off between efficiency and short-term results on the one hand and viability and long-term survival on the other.

As a former CEO (multiple occasions) and member of several boards, may I be allowed to point out that very few companies survive on nearly the same time-scale as countries?

Of course, this does not gainsay the arguments on either side. This may be considered as one more data point.

Regards,
'Joe S.'

Yes, your point is well taken here, but may I add something here also. I am not against democracy in its principle because different opinions are always needed. I actually strongly encourage democracy in the decision making bodies which is what China has right now, but if you want to take it to a universal level, then I think that is really unnecessary and redundant. If you had been managing so many companies before, you should realized that not everyone deserve to have his or hers voice to be heard. People always look for their own interests rather than the interests and the well being of the company which in term is the interests and well being of everyone at large. There are too many example of those kinds with in the corporate world.

You may call me an elitist, but I strong believe that if one want his opinion to matter than he better have certain qualification for it. Just ask yourself the question that whether you want your opinions to be weighted the same as someone who are retarded. However for those who enjoy these privileges, these privileges also come with the responsibility to look after the welfare of those who are less fortunately, and this responsibility should also be enforced.

I am glad that finally someone like you can contribute some intelligent comments. Looking forward to your replies.