MARTIAL LAW TO SAVE THE COUNTRY?

[opinion786]

=vish;162828]History has shown that the implementation of martial law in Pakistan has not been short and has been damaging to the country's institutions.

The first three years Musharraf ruled (1999 to 2002) were given and approved by our Supreme Court. The Supreme Court allowed Musharraf to implement his reforms in three years time and hold elections.

Musharraf held elections before the third year expired. In that PML-Q emerged as the winner. PML-Q suported Musharraf and had him elected to post of President.

PML-Q had 2/3 majority with MQM and JUI-F, and they altered the rule of constitution democratically, in Senate and Assembly; that laid down condition that a servicemen could not hold public office unless a period of two year lapses.

That article in constitution was altered and Musharraf was elected Presdient with 2/3 majority votes. Everything happened in a democratic manner.

All this process was democractic. For 5 years PML-Q governed. If our Senate and Assembly with 2/3 majority approved Musharraf in Uniform as Presdient of PAkistan ..... people should learn to respect the parliaments decision.

Why is that Musharraf should respect the parliament BUT not those who are against Musharraf????

[opinion786]

Originally Posted by blain2

Pakistanis deserve every bit of martial law, boots and guns that they get shoved down their throats. When you are not responsible enough to run the country, do you think others including Army would keep on letting you screw things up? No they are going to get in (even though they themselves may not be able to do much either) and take over.

This is a reality and a lesson for all, not just the Army. Take care of that country...it was not had easily....over a million died for her and yet all we are satisfied with is the blame game. Its the Army, its the Army and its the Army! .

Very well said Blain2 !!! I agree !!! Military also improved our Public education!

In 1999-2000 there were 31 Public Universities. Now 2005-2006 there are 50 Public Universities. Under Musharraf 20 NEW UNIVERSITIES SET UP!

• Air University (established 2002)
• Institute of Space technology, ISB (established 2002)
• Sardar Bahadur Khan Women University, Quetta (established 2004)
• University of Science & Technology, Bannu (established 2005)
• University of Hazara (founded 2002)
• Malakand university, Chakdara (established 2002)
• Karakurum International university, Gilgit (established 2002)
• University of Gujrat (established 2004)
• Virtual University of Pak, Lahore (established 2002)
• Sarhad University of IT, Peshawar (established 2001)
• National Law University, ISB (2007)
• Media University, ISB (2007) etc.
• University of Education, Lahore (2002)
• Lasbella University of Marine Sciences, Baluchistan (2005)
• Baluchistan University of IT & Management, Quetta (2002), etc.
and many others!

[vish]

Originally Posted by roadrunner

That's convenient! Pakistan was going to experience an upswing in growth coincidentally when Musharraf took power and placed Aziz in fiscal charge, and then to experience a decline when Musharraf and Aziz left the government! Musharraf and Aziz had nothing to do with it! Convenient indeed. Did i tell you also that when Mohammed Yousuf walks out onto the field, it's actually me under the helmet with a fake beard attached to my chin? All his hundreds are actually mine, nothing to do with him! Nothing to do with the government indeed, what a lousy argument!

Pakistan’s economy was showing signs of an upswing before Musharraf came into power. This “upswing” was more of a correction as Pakistani economy was badly hit due to sanctions in the 1990s. Musharraf organized the coup; the economic situation got further destabilized due to a threat of sanctions: export quotas for Pakistan were supposed to be lowered. 9/11 changed everything for both Musharraf and Pakistan. It bought an end to the sanctions and billions of dollars of aid. More than that, the international economic standing of Pakistan improved due to the Musharraf’s “moderate” stance. This increased economic growth was largely due to 9/11 and the accompanying economic liberalization, which Musharraf was clever enough to take advantage of. I’m not denying what Musharraf and Aziz have done for Pakistan; my contention is that a democratic government would have done equally well, if not more so.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Fiscal policy is what turned round Pakistan's economy post 911. Monetary policy. Nothing to do with a global turnaround in the market OR an automatic change in the right direction. Remember Pakistan was headed towards default prior to Musharraf taking over, it then came to being the fastest growing economy in the world under Musharraf, it is now slowing down under the new government. Fiscal policy is all that matters.

Pakistan’s growth under Musharraf was more of a correction as the Pakistani economy was held back in the mid-1990s due to Pakistan’s own mismatched geo-political agendas. Musharraf’s fiscal policy created illusionary growth; if it would have created sustainable growth, your country would not be in a quandary that it finds itself in now.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Remember another thing. Had it not been for Musharraf, Pakistan would have been reduced to rubble post 911 had he not balanced on the tightrope and appeased the Americans as well as his own people. Another leader at the time would probably have got the country bombed or started a civil war.

Any sane Pakistani leader (democratic/military, corrupt/non-corrupt) would have done what Musharraf did. You may be right though that Musharraf did it in a manner which was much better; however, any democratically elected leader would have been equally good at this, if he/she had the support of the military.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Well, it would help if you knew something about Pakistan before commenting on it. The National Assembly under Musharraf was not a rubber stamp assembly. It was directly elected by the people in the 2002 General Elections, which Musharraf had won. All the reforms Musharraf passed through had to go through the National Assembly including the women's Bills, and so on. There goes your rubber stamp National Assembly claim. The number of women in the National Assembly increased under Musharraf, he also got rid of the Hudood Laws, something no other government did.

The National Assembly under Musharraf was devoid of the two largest parties of Pakistan. It was filled with Musharraf’s allies that, by the way, did include the religious right. The national Assembly did hold debates but was nothing more than a rubber-stamp parliament; the issues it “discussed” were more or less done deals. The Women's Protection Bill has much more in common with the Hudood Ordinance than desired.

It is statements like these, “Well, it would help if you knew something about Pakistan before commenting on it,” that convince me that you cannot stand disagreement. Why do you have to make it personal?

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Now your other claims about election commision and independent media are nonsense.

Election commission.
This is the first time that general elections are being held in the presence of a vibrant media with more than 65 TV channels and 85 FM radio stations in the country.

It is for the first time that domestic observers are monitoring the elections in Pakistan. The Free and Fair Election Network (FAFEN), established with the help of The Asia Foundation and the UN Development Programme (UNDP), has sent 20,000 observers.
No rules binding media coverage of polls: Election Commission | TwoCircles.net

Add to that in 2002, it was the first time EU observers were allowed to monitor the electoral process in the history of Pakistan, and I think even you must now agree that Musharraf and the military actually strengthened the case for democracy in Pakistan. As the quote says, media was not restricted at all during the General Elections, they were given a free hand by the leadership.

Musharraf strengthened the case for democracy; agreed. But besides conducting free and fair elections (mind you these elections were under severe scrutiny both inside and outside Pakistan), did he have much of a choice? I’m sure if he did, he would have done otherwise. Musharraf strengthened democracy because the Pakistanis wanted democracy; so why are you advocating a return to military rule?

Originally Posted by roadrunner

I'm not sure how Musharraf weakened the police force, perhaps you can enlighten me on this.

I said Pakistan’s institutions have been weakened by the regularity of military coups. I never laid the blame alone on Musharraf. If the country’s most revered institution, the Army, plays with the country’s laws and constitution, doesn’t that erode the sanctity of law, and consequently, the morale of the police force who are supposed to withhold that sanctity?

Originally Posted by roadrunner

the Judiciary I'll disagree with also. For the first time in history, a Pakistani leader lost a court case, and abided by the judgement of the judiciary. Musharraf allowed the CJ to stay. What happened afterwards was a purge, but Pakistan is in need of purging certain elements that do not deserve their elitist positions. Afaik, it is within the President's right to call an inquest into the judiciary, though not to remove him unilaterally.

Musharraf tried everything to oust the CJ; this was the trigger that created a popular pro-democracy backlash. Your judiciary’s independence and bias is well documented. This bias is a result of the scant respect for the law which every one of the state-level actors (Army, political parties, etc.) have shown. Was Musharraf a legitimate president; no; he was a dictator.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Right.."hard" factors. Let's see.. Economic growth was highest under Musharraf and the military with KSE being the strongest stock exchange on the planet, GDP growth the highest on the planet, credit ratings on the rise, macroeconomic position solid. Now every media outlet is reporting Pakistan's weak macroeconomic position, and even the credit rating of Standard and Poor's has dropped in the last couple of months since the new government took over. Coincidence?

Even if Musharraf would have been in charge right now, the economic situation would have been the same. The growth wasn’t sustainable; this has been compounded by record oil and food prices. Musharraf’s neglect of the power situation cannot be overlooked.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Have bombings stopped? Didn't the Danish Embassy get bombed a couple of days ago, and haven't scores of paramiliatries been killed in recent months when the government took over? You fail to see, Musharraf was not the cause of resentment by these radicals. The radicals will attack any government in power until they establish a caliphate. Zardari just blamed the attacks as Musharraf's fault in order to grab a position in the hot seat. Reality, these bombings were going to happen whoever was leading Pakistan.

I’m personally against the peace deals and agree they have been a failure.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Your arguments have been proven to be incorrect on this thread, and your facts have been proven to be incorrect on the history thread. I don't think it's a question of sanity.

You disagree with my arguments and “facts;” so you assume they have been proven wrong? I could say the same about you but won’t do so as I would rather agree to disagree and respect the other person’s opinion. It is a question of sanity for you resort to personal attacks f presented with disagreement. You can read my last reply to your post in the history thread.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

It's your interpretation of what I said, which is incorrect. Pakistanis being uneducated and poor does not mean Pakistanis are dumb or subhuman - that is your interpretation of my meaning.

So let me get you intention this time.

Pakistanis are poor and uneducated = Pakistanis may be unable to ascertain the value of their vote = Pakistanis do not deserve to vote.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

What it means, is that Pakistanis are poor (reality and fact), the politicians like NS are extremely rich - therefore one vote is very cheap to a politician in Pakistan. In the West, one vote is much more expensive because the differential is not so great. Essentially, you're using a strawman argument here, which is the sign of a very weak argument.

I'll let you think about it. If I contested a General Election in Pakistan with $5,000,000 at my disposal (probably a small fraction of what NS and Zardari have), I could already bag at least 5 million voters. Add to this, the tribalistic nature of the society, and you have whole scores of people being told how to vote. Until these factors are sorted out, the idea of democracy in Pakistan is delusional.

This happens in my country too, Pakistan is no different. Your society is multi-ethnic and not tribal. Your argument with regard to money is flawed, for in an election, all parties would try to woo the voter, either with money or with promises. This evens the scenario out. At least in a democracy people have a chance to boot out the ruling party.

Further, I’ll let this article do the talking.

DAWN - Irfan Hussain; February 02, 2008

[vish]

Originally Posted by opinion786

This is a huge assumption by you, which didn't occur in the last 50 years! But under Musharraf it did happen! For the first time in Pakistan's 60 years:

Pakistan's economy grew by 100% --- to become $ 160 billion
Revenue grew by 100% --- to become $ 11.4 billion
Foreign Reserves grew by 500% --- to become $ 17 billion
Exports grew by 100% --- to become $ 18.5 billion
Textile exports grew by 100% --- to become $ 11.2 billion
Karachi Stock Exchange grew by 500% --- to become $ 65 billion
Foreign Direct Investment grew by 500% --- to become $ 8 billion
Annual Debt servicing decreased by 35% --- to become 26%
Poverty decreased by 10% --- to become 24%
literacy rate grew by 10% --- to become 54%
Public development Funds grew by 100% --- to become Rs 520 billion

I’ve stated earlier that yes there has been economic development under Musharraf; what you fail to see are the reasons behind this growth. If no 9/11 would have happened, the picture would have been very different, regardless of the government (civilian/military). If there would have been no coup and 9/11 would have happened, things, in all likelihood, might have been the same.

Originally Posted by opinion786

Welcome to DEMON-CRAZY ! We always had oppositions. Our leaders are corrupt and inept. Maybe you are willing to give away your country to corrupt rulers, but not us. We want clean and honest DELIVERING leaders!

Every country has corrupt and inept leaders; Pakistan is no exception. Your military leaders are no less corrupt.

Was this line, “Maybe you are willing to give away your country to corrupt rulers, but not us” necessary?

Originally Posted by opinion786

Actually your knowledge about PAK is not complete and your views are based upon assumptions. Otherwsie, you would have known that:
1- Nawaz approved the 13th & 14th amedments to make him a unchallenged King of Parliament where there were no checks & balances on him.
2- Nawaz stormed the Supreme Court PAK and his workers orchestrated a well organised riot inside the premises.
3- Nawaz fought with 4 Army Chiefs.
4- He fought with his party members & his essence of democracy was: father's friend as President of PAk, brother the CM of Punjab, himself PM of PAK and daughter's father-in-law the Fianace Minister.
5- He robbed the country of Foreign reserves of $10 billion. Is this robbery fine in India??
6- He fought with 2 Presidents of Pakistan, and later promoted his dad's friend as a PUPPET Presdient.
7- Zardari honestly needs no comments - he is another fine example of Monarchy robbed by his wife!

I’m aware of everything you have said. I’ll still maintain democracy is the only way forward for Pakistan because it is relatively easier to oust a politician by non-military means. I’m not a big fan of NS or BB either; I’m a big fan of democracy. Democracy has a crude birth and then undergoes maturity.

Originally Posted by opinion786

That why our Armed forces had to patrol on NWFP border - some people call it the WoT. this patrolling was done by Armed Forces to STOP:

1- Cross boder infiltration from Afghan into NWFP.
2- Espionage mission of RAW (sorry) agents into NWFP.
3- Illegal crossig of refugees and immigrants into NWFP. We already have 25 Lakhs of these from the 1980's.
4- Illegal weapons and ammunition crossing over into NWFP.
5- The safe haven that the Uzbeks, Tajiks, Arabs, Afghans, etc had created in mountains of NWFP.

When a country goes to war, all countries surrounding its border increase the security levels to red alert and increase surviellence. PAK took no different approach.

I agree thoroughly; there is no need to apologize. Some of those operations may be RAW’s work. These things are done by every country. ISI wasn’t discrete enough and went overboard.

Originally Posted by opinion786

Fact: Out of 160 million **** only 27 million voted. Out of which PPP got 10 million, PML-Q got 8 million and PML-N got 7 million and other parties the remaining.

Around 140 million **** DID NOT VOTE!

I need a link on this. Even if this is so, one cannot say that those 140 million Pakistanis want the military rule to stay.

Originally Posted by opinion786

Again your assumption. Better saying than proving. PAK was a fialed state under Nawaz. Below are only FEW examples and I have 40 examples. Under Nawaz:

1- In 1999, Revenue generation of around Rs.308 billion could not meet the growing expenditure requirements; with only an average of Rs.80 billion being spent on Public sector development programs (PSDP) annually, and no visible project to boast about.
2- From this Rs.308 billion around 65% was being utilized for debt servicing.
3- In 1988 Pakistan’s foreign debt was $18 billion, but at the end of 1999 it had accumulated to become $38 billion. A 100% increased burden on the already crippled economy.
4- Public and external debt exceeded 300% of Foreign exchange earnings. Pakistan had become a highly indebted poor country.
5- Poverty levels also increased to become 35% according to economic survey.
6- Foreign reserves ONLY $700 million.
7- Foreign investment less than $1 billion
8- Exports stagnated at $7 billion.

Pakistan’s economic condition deteriorated due to the multiple and various sanctions imposed on it since the collapse of the USSR. The nuclear tests aggravated this situation. 9/11 lead to a complete reversal in Pakistan’s economic fortunes.

Originally Posted by opinion786

AGAIN, BEFORE 9/11 Musharraf had already improved the Economy.

In that SHORT span of 2 years BEFORE 9/11,
1-Pakistan’s revenue increased from Rs.308 billion to become Rs.395 billion.
2-Exports increased from $7.5 billion to become $9.2 billion.
3-Foreign Reserves increased from $1 billion to become $3.25 billion.
4-Debt servicing as a ratio to Revenue decreased from 65% to 57%.
5-Public and external debt as a percentage to Foreign exchange earnings declined from 300% to 250%.
6-Current account deficit decreased from $2.4 billion to become $510 million. 7-Pakistan’s large-scale manufacturing grew by 11% in June 2001 against 3.5% in 1998.

I would like a source on this. I do agree that NS ruined Pakistan's economy.

Originally Posted by opinion786

IN THIS SHORT SPAN OF TWO months of Demon-cratic govt:

1- Foreign reserves fell from $16 billion to $12 billion.
2- Rupee devalued from Rs.61 per dollar to Rs.70 per dollar.
3- Inflation highest ever.
4- Foreign investment of $12 billion flew away to Dubai and India (happy) :-)
5- KHI stock exchange fell by 2000 points.

Do not assess the performance of an economy by its stock market. The fall in foreign reserves is due to political instability; this was expected as a remarkable transition was taking place. Mind you the dollars that flew outwards were easy money; easy come, easy go. The rupee devaluation is again due to the same reasons. Inflation is high across the globe. It’s effects have been particularly harsh in Pakistan because of multiple factors. Musharraf’s government would face the same flak.

Why the smiley here, “Foreign investment of $12 billion flew away to Dubai and India (happy) :-) ”? I told you, this is FII money; easy come, easy go.

KSE fell due to political instability, due to which FII’s started cashing out on their gains.

Originally Posted by opinion786

What future do we have under these IDIOTS who are actually FEUDALS and inherited democracy through Monarchy and the rest are mafia-business men.

Musharraf our leader!

These “IDIOTS” have been elected by your countrymen who do not think these individuals are “IDIOTS.” If you disagree with them then show it in a political manner. The reason you are wanting for a military rule is that your candidate lost. Nobody is stopping Musharraf from forming his own political party.

Originally Posted by opinion786

The first three years Musharraf ruled (1999 to 2002) were given and approved by our Supreme Court. The Supreme Court allowed Musharraf to implement his reforms in three years time and hold elections.

The Oath of Judges Order 2000

Originally Posted by opinion786

Musharraf held elections before the third year expired. In that PML-Q emerged as the winner. PML-Q suported Musharraf and had him elected to post of President.

PML-Q had 2/3 majority with MQM and JUI-F, and they altered the rule of constitution democratically, in Senate and Assembly; that laid down condition that a servicemen could not hold public office unless a period of two year lapses.

That article in constitution was altered and Musharraf was elected Presdient with 2/3 majority votes. Everything happened in a democratic manner.

These elections were rigged. Musharraf himself went on TV and apologized to the nation for “irregularities.” The election results would have been vastly different had BB and NS been allowed to contest the elections. This clearly shows the lopsidedness of this election, senate, and National Assembly. If the country’s largest political parties are quarantined from contesting the elections, how are the elections democratic?

Originally Posted by opinion786

All this process was democractic. For 5 years PML-Q governed. If our Senate and Assembly with 2/3 majority approved Musharraf in Uniform as Presdient of PAkistan ..... people should learn to respect the parliaments decision.

Why is that Musharraf should respect the parliament BUT not those who are against Musharraf????

Did this senate and parliament show any respect for the Pakistani people or their wishes?

[opinion786]

=vish;163081]I’ve stated earlier that yes there has been economic development under Musharraf; what you fail to see are the reasons behind this growth. If no 9/11 would have happened, the picture would have been very different, regardless of the government (civilian/military). If there would have been no coup and 9/11 would have happened, things, in all likelihood, might have been the same.

I'll give you detail replies later. I'm in hurry today.

The statistics that I pasted earlier showed that our economy started signs of revival BEFORE 9/11.

Also, the extend and measurement should be seen, as to how much 9/11 enabled or helped us?? We cannot give away the credit of macro-economic policies and honesty and liberization of laws to 9/11.

I have many links and I'll share soon.

After 9/11 accoring to State bank governor Dr Ishrat Hussein, $25 billion did arise. But, now we are far cry from 9/11 support. Our economy has established its base and we need honest leader to groom it further. Democracy will not help, as our s leaders are inept and corrupt!

Our economy boomed from $75 billion to $160 billion. So, $25 billion that was fast money (windfall of 9/11) does not matter!

An excellent article by DR Ashfaque Hassan: http://www.finance.gov.pk/articles/e...kat%20Aziz.pdf

Every country has corrupt and inept leaders; Pakistan is no exception. Your military leaders are no less corrupt.

This is wrong assumption. There may be few exceptions, but over-all they are very well disciplined and free from corruption.

Was this line, “Maybe you are willing to give away your country to corrupt rulers, but not us” necessary?

Sorry for sentence. But, you may advocate democracy for yourself, as you are free of Feudalism. We have so-called demoncrats who are feudals & inherited democracy through MONARCHY.

We don't want demoncrazy! We wnt honest DELIVERING leaders!

I’m aware of everything you have said. I’ll still maintain democracy is the only way forward for Pakistan because it is relatively easier to oust a politician by non-military means. I’m not a big fan of NS or BB either; I’m a big fan of democracy. Democracy has a crude birth and then undergoes maturity.

I've lived in coutries where there are kings and no democracy. Yet, there is much peace, living standards high, law & order, basic health & infrastructure facilites etc.

I don't care, from where our leaders come from. Democracy, theoracracy, bureacracy, military or kingship. Hell or HEaven! They should DELIVER for Public's betterment!

I agree thoroughly; there is no need to apologize. Some of those operations may be RAW’s work. These things are done by every country. ISI wasn’t discrete enough and went overboard.

Yes, they all do the same. But there are evidences that RAW has establised several consulates on NWFP border.

I need a link on this. Even if this is so, one cannot say that those 140 million Pakistanis want the military rule to stay.

Then why is it said vice-versa? The majority may not want military leaders, but we need leaders who are DELIVERING and we want Musharraf!

According to the statistics of the Election Commission:

The PML-Q and its allies: 10,844,233 votes.
The PPP-P: 10,055,491 votes.
PML-N: 6,240,343 votes.

PML-Q and allies received 40 per cent of votes.
PPP-P: 37 per cent.
PML-N: 23 per cent

Total votes cast: 27.14 million.
http://www.ecp.gov.pk/NAPosition.pdf

On a one-on-one basis between the three major contenders, the votes received were:

PPP-P: 10.3 million,
PML-Q: 7.6 million,
PML-N: 6.67 million.

An inconvenient truth

Pakistan’s economic condition deteriorated due to the multiple and various sanctions imposed on it since the collapse of the USSR. The nuclear tests aggravated this situation. 9/11 lead to a complete reversal in Pakistan’s economic fortunes.

This is wrong. The sacntions were there only for 6 months. From May 1998 (nuclear blasts) to October 1998. In Novermebr, when NAwaz went to meet Clinton, they were removed. I.M.F. Agrees to Resume Pakistan Aid, Cut Off After Atom Tests I.M.F. Agrees to Resume Pakistan Aid, Cut Off After Atom Tests - New York Times

CIA Factbook quotes and also State Bank, that we were receiving annual $2 billion aid and help. Our leaders were MIS-SPENDING and accumulating their wealth abroad.

I would like a source on this. I do agree that NS ruined Pakistan's economy.

How can we give away our country to inept rulers? Nawaz Sharif corruption:

1- http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec20...main/main1.htm
2-http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2423/20.html
3- http://www.dawn.com/2000/text/top4.htm
4- PML-Q issues ‘white paper’ against Nawaz -DAWN - National; February 13, 2008
5- Behind the Chairman’s Door | How to Destabilize a Country
6- http://www.millat.com/ghalibcom/even...st_nawaz_b.htm
7- Pakistan: Now Testy Times

Nawaz Sahrif Economic blunders and Economy at that time:

Other observations: The external debt and liabilities (EDL) in ratio to ‘Foreign Exchange earnings’ were:
1999 - 347%
2000 – 297.2%
2006 – 137%
2007 – 122.5%

External debt & liabilities (EDL):
1988 - $ 18 billion
1990 - $ 20 billion
1999 - $ 39 billion
2007 - $ 40.17 billion
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Pakistan’s Debt Position and the Question of Debt Retirement – 1999/2000
Jubilee Research: PAKISTAN’S DEBT POSITION AND THE QUESTION OF DEBT RETIREMENT

Do not assess the performance of an economy by its stock market. The fall in foreign reserves is due to political instability; this was expected as a remarkable transition was taking place. Mind you the dollars that flew outwards were easy money; easy come, easy go. The rupee devaluation is again due to the same reasons. Inflation is high across the globe. It’s effects have been particularly harsh in Pakistan because of multiple factors. Musharraf’s government would face the same flak.

Musharraf kept that political stability from 1999 to March 2007. After this lawyers movement our country did see decline in investments and economy. But, after elections and this decline is going further.

The difference what you don't realise is that although international factors do effect economies aroond the world, yet the intentions of leaders are first most important. If we have stupid finance ministers who say in USA that the economic figures are false.... what should be the effect???

1- Stock market fell by 1000 poinst on simple rumors that Musharraf has been sidelined, twice.
2- Rupee devalued is not a simple situation. PML-Q kept it at Rs60 per dollar for 6 years.
3-This easy come and easy go ... should be stopped by policies and investment friendly incentives. If our Politiciains fail to do this, what GOD given NOC do they have to stay at powers helm? Quit!
4- Few months before, USA recession caused world Stock markets to fall by 4% to 12%, including Indian markets. Yet KHI Stock fell only by 2%. Now its fallen by above 10%.

Why the smiley here, “Foreign investment of $12 billion flew away to Dubai and India (happy) :-) ”? I told you, this is FII money; easy come, easy go.

So you mean to imply that "there should be NO EFFORTS to STOP it"???? And, our politicians should dance around happy go??? They have no sense of duty to care for economy???

KSE fell due to political instability, due to which FII’s started cashing out on their gains.

Our politicians should either reconcile, or remove Musharraf with 2/3, or just shut up and work for economy!

Political instability should NOT be used as an excuse to let these criminals PPP & PML-N run scot free!

These “IDIOTS” have been elected by your countrymen who do not think these individuals are “IDIOTS.” If you disagree with them then show it in a political manner. The reason you are wanting for a military rule is that your candidate lost. Nobody is stopping Musharraf from forming his own political party.

No! I' support PML-Q for Musharraf. Otherwsie, they're all the same, more or less.

These elections were rigged. Musharraf himself went on TV and apologized to the nation for “irregularities.”

T

Wasn;t it his greatness??? Courage no one else has!

The election results would have been vastly different had BB and NS been allowed to contest the elections. This clearly shows the lopsidedness of this election, senate, and National Assembly. If the country’s largest political parties are quarantined from contesting the elections, how are the elections democratic?

Sorry, but Nawaz has been declared incompetent to hold public office for 20 years, by our Supreme Court. Should one respect Supreme Court decision?

Why else do you think he needs a JUDGE iftikar chaudhry to get himself cleared of cases and this 20 year BAN??

Did this senate and parliament show any respect for the Pakistani people or their wishes?

Are you advocating for Nawaz & Zardari or for democratic instituions??

If the senate and assembly 2/3 majority supports Musharraf..... it is not acceptable to you?

But if this same senate and assembly support PPP and Nawaz .... you accept it??

Musharraf was elected by 2/3 majority with Public wishes in 2002 and 2007. If these recent elections did not favor Musharraf, it doesn;t matter. Who-ever has the majority is free to rule.

In 2002, Nawaz got only 16 NA seats but now he got 60 NA seats. People voted as they were mis-guided by MEDIA against Musharraf.

But, once this inflation goes up and jobs creation stopped and non public utilities cared for.... poeple will realsie their mistakes!

[opinion786]

Vish, bottom line is:

Pakistan's economy grew by 100% --- to become $ 160 billion
Revenue grew by 100% --- to become $ 11.4 billion
Foreign Reserves grew by 500% --- to become $ 17 billion
Exports grew by 100% --- to become $ 18.5 billion
Textile exports grew by 100% --- to become $ 11.2 billion
Karachi Stock Exchange grew by 500% --- to become $ 65 billion
Foreign Direct Investment grew by 500% --- to become $ 8 billion
Annual Debt servicing decreased by 35% --- to become 26%
Poverty decreased by 10% --- to become 24%
literacy rate grew by 10% --- to become 54%
Public development Funds grew by 100% --- to become Rs 520 billion

These facts happened in Musharraf era and due to Shaukat Aziz's liberal policies, expertise, honest efforts, liberalization of rules & policies, close interaction with Business community, etc.

We must NOT find excuses to strip him of his achievements. We must accept where it is due. Why weren't Nawaz & co or Zardari capable of doing it for PAK? They only have lame excuses.

In 1999, Oil was $25 per barrel and now its $110 per barrel. Yet, Musharraf was able to keep our economy stable!

Though there is no reverse effect of 9/11.... why is FDI running away??? Lack of honest Policies!

[JK!]

Originally Posted by vish

How is a democratically elected government a dictatorship?

It would be like Scottish Football where every season guaranteed Rangers will play Celtic in the Final match.

Its either PPP or PML N constantly in government and right now it seems both Nawaz Sharif and Asif Zardari are trying to consolidate their positions for such a role.

[opinion786]

Vish, further:

1- IMF, WB praise Pakistan's economic and fiscal performance:
Pakistan Times | Top Stories: IMF, WB praise Pakistan's economic and fiscal performance

2- World Bank Statistics (year 2000 to year 2005)
Report

3- PAK Economic growth has bolstered int’l confidence: World Bank
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

4- World Bank President praises Pakistan's recent economic achievements.
World Bank President praises Pakistan's recent economic achievements. Industry & Business Article - Research, News, Information, Contacts, Divisions, Subsidiaries, Business Associations

5- IMF praise for Pakistan
BBC NEWS | Business | IMF praise for Pakistan

6- "ADB praises micro-finance in Pakistan.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

7- The world's most dangerous haven or Asia's Best Stock Exchange – Karachi
http://www.economist.com/finance/dis...ry_id=10567602


Vish,
Every where you would see these world institutions praising Pakistan's and Government's economic policies and macro & micro economic policies. Reforms and liberal honest policies helped this economic achievement!

Summary of the three reports of the J. P Morgan, the Merrill Lynch, and the City Group on the performance of Pak economy have already appeared in the press in addition to a very positive report of the World Bank released in Washington on "Doing Business in South Asia - 2007, which gives high marks to Pakistan in improving its business environment.

No one is praising the 9/11 effects, nor easy come easy go money. They're praising policies.

By the way, after 9/11 ONLY $8 billion came as FDI and around $5 billion as aid and assistence..... but PAkistan's economy grew by $85 billion.

[roadrunner]

Good article, opinion..

On a one-on-one basis between the three major contenders, the votes received were: the PPP-P 10.3 million, the PML-Q 7.6 million, and the PML-N 6.67 million.
An inconvenient truth

I do think Musharraf tried to create a fair election, and he didn't do too badly in the vote either.

[tamir]

Martial law is not the answer but sometimes is the only option. Thats what has been happening since Pakistan's creation.
Imposing martial law is like press the reset button on the computer. It will probably reboot but still have the problem. Need to get rid of the problem that makes us reboot our country.