Model Islamic State

[dabong1]

Originally Posted by Unbeliever

I guess postponing the barbaric whipping of an innocent women has to be considered progress?.

I wonder what the woman would want......a quick whipping or being sent to jail for years.

Originally Posted by Unbeliever

Of course no one is questioning the law.. because questioning authorities is very unislamic... unlike brutally beating people for consuming a beverage..

Better to inject a person with poison you would not put a dog down with put happy to use it on a human......what about if we put them in electric chairs and fry the person alive....really humane.

[Durran3]

Is democracy, liberalism and capitalism not responsible for the killings that have taken place over the last couple of hundred years......millions and millions of people have been killed due to democracy, liberalism and capitalism something non of the wars of faith have come close to.

What an absurd statement. Democracy is an idea and should not be held responsible for the deaths of millions of people. Religion has also been responsible for millions and millions of deaths as well over the past 2000 years if i was to put this argument by your logic. You can't blame an idea, you can't blame the idea of communism for Stalin's action or blame Democracy for Bush's actions.

[Durran3]

The 65% Athiest/Agnostic figure is untrue......just becauce your not a member of the church does not make you an Athiest.

Being a member of the church doesn't mean your religious. France is a staunch Agnostic/Athiest country yet it associates itself with Catholicism even though it constitutionally doesn't say anything about it.

Sweden
Population: 9,248,805
National Language: Swedish
% of Atheists/Non-believers: 85%

Denmark
Population: 5,506,000
National Language: Danish
% of Atheists/Non-believers: 80%

Population: 4,799,035
National Languages: Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
% of Atheists/Non-believers:72%

Finland
Population: 5,326,100
National Languages: Finnish, Swedish
% of Atheists/Non-believers:60%

France
Population: 64,473,140
National Language: French
% of Atheists/Non-believers: 43-54%

Other countries

Japan
Population: 127,690,000
National Language: Japanese
% of Atheists/Non-believers: 64 - 65%

Vietnam
Population: 87,375,000
National Language: Vietnamese
% of Atheists/Non-believers: 81%

------------------

Like i said belonging to a church doesn't mean your religious, i can guarentee you that 95% of those who belong to a certain church either never go there and don't practice any religous rituals

Avoid the Religious Masses: Top 10 Atheistic Countries

[Bezerk]

Originally Posted by MilesTogo

Which of the following can be said to be a model Islamic State working in accordance with Islamic principles and moving in right direction towards peace, prosperity, glory and greatness or at least has the potential to do so in near future -

(in no particular order)

1. Saudi Arabia
2. Iran
3. Pakistan
4. UAE
5. Egypt
6. Malasiya
7. Indonesia
8. Turkey

Interesting thread.

I believe there is no such thing as a "Model Islamic State" in today's world. To understand state level politics and governance we must first take a look at their historic background. Any governance system requires a basic Idea to function its national political system properly. Be it democracy, dictatorship, khilafah, communism, secularism etc.

For example, Just like how spread of communism in modern day United States sounds absurd, a democratically elected government in Saudi-Arab sounds even more absurd. Their idea of being a "Model Islamic State" relies heavily on the Arab tradition rather than "Islamic" traditions. Which wouldn't be a successful idea for other Muslim countries. So it's all a game of your regional history, traditions and religious influence at the top from bottom down.

To me, the country's listed above are far from being a "Model" to anyone. They all have their weaknesses and should focus more on those first before we can even consider any one of them as a Model to follow.

In my opinion, A Model Islamic State should first and foremost give their people the freedom to practice ANY religion they wish to, the way they want to, because at the end of the day, The Quran tells us that:

"Lakum deen-kum wal ya deen" (your religion for you and my religion for me and "La iqra fi al deen (Let there be no compulsion in religion)

If this is achieved by any state, I believe that particular state would be on its path to achieve a title far more better than what the OP suggested.

Just my two cents.

[Durran3]

For example, Just like how spread of communism in modern day United States sounds absurd, a democratically elected government in Saudi-Arab sounds even more absurd. Their idea of being a "Model Islamic State" relies heavily on the Arab tradition rather than "Islamic" traditions. Which wouldn't be a successful idea for other Muslim countries. So it's all a game of your regional history, traditions and religious influence at the top from bottom down.

Thats a well thought out response and pretty much on the spot

[MilesTogo]

Actually in my view UK and for that matter all the imperialistic nations of past have a moral responsibility towards the rest of the world to give back.

Originally Posted by Durran3

The Nordic/Scandanavian countries are more than 65% Athiest/Agnostic just so you didn't know!! there is no moral collapse and they are have the highest number of volunteers working around the world in poor countries

[zombie]

"Lakum deen-kum wal ya deen" (your religion for you and my religion for me and "La iqra fi al deen (Let there be no compulsion in religion)

What about people who dont identify with any religion?

[Durran3]

Originally Posted by MilesTogo

Actually in my view UK and for that matter all the imperialistic nations of past have a moral responsibility towards the rest of the world to give back.

I suppose but Britian has been relatively good to South Asia since independence. Although ofcourse one can never forget what they've done in the past with regards to imperialism, racism, colonialism and would probably be never forgotten by those who've lived under them.

I do think Britian has done some good by exporting their Education system. Whether that has brought more harm or good to those who can't speak english is another story because I want Urdu to be taught as the MAIN language for everything in Pakistan but still the British Higher school education system is definately one of the best in the world and quiet frankly when they left at least they left behind an infrastructure and a parlimentarian system for both of our countries to follow. Remember countries that were occupied by France are in a much worse condition than the countries that were occupied by Britian.

[dabong1]

Originally Posted by Durran3

What an absurd statement. Democracy is an idea and should not be held responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

Fascism was also an idea but we hold it and the people that backed it responsible the death and misery it cauced.

What seems to be absurd is your idea that Democracy is an idea and should not be held responsible for millions of deaths this idea has led to but religion must accept all the blame for wars that occured during its time in power.

Originally Posted by Durran3

Religion has also been responsible for millions and millions of deaths as well over the past 2000 years if i was to put this argument by your logic.

Democracy-liberalism-atheism ect win hands down with the number of deaths that have created compared to religion during any time.......go ahead and compare the amount of people that have been killed during the last 250 years to the ones killed during the last 2000 years by your ideals of Democracy-liberalism-atheism.

Originally Posted by Durran3

You can't blame an idea, you can't blame the idea of communism for Stalin's action or blame Democracy for Bush's actions.

Good....so you seem to understand that its not islam that has led to killings but the people behind it a lot like stalin and communism and Democracy and Bush......its not islam or Democracy that is the problem but the people that run the show?......or is islam to blame when something goes wrong but the same yardstickdoes not apply when Democracy-liberalism-atheism go wrong..

[dabong1]

Originally Posted by Durran3

Being a member of the church doesn't mean your religious. France is a staunch Agnostic/Athiest country yet it associates itself with Catholicism even though it constitutionally doesn't say anything about it.

And vice versa not going to church does not make you an Athiest

Originally Posted by Durran3

Population: 4,799,035
National Languages: Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk)
% of Atheists/Non-believers:72%

Top 10 Countries
With Highest Proportion of Atheists
Adherents.com: Atheist Statistics | Agnostic

Norway is the only country that comes up on the list and shows that 14.90 % are atheist.


------------------

Originally Posted by Durran3

Like i said belonging to a church doesn't mean your religious, i can guarentee you that 95% of those who belong to a certain church either never go there and don't practice any religous rituals

I can guarentee you that 95% of those that dont do the religous rituals still have total belief in god and your stats seem to be dubious.
Did you go to church....No ...so u must be an atheist.
The atheist are a little minority that holds power and think the rest of us suffer from some sort of mass delusion but are only fooling only themselfs.

[toxic_pus]

Originally Posted by dabong1

I wonder what the woman would want......a quick whipping or being sent to jail for years.

How about none of the above.

Better to inject a person with poison you would not put a dog down with put happy to use it on a human......what about if we put them in electric chairs and fry the person alive....really humane.

Killing a person is never humane. However that thought process that led to electric chair and later lethal injections, is indeed humane. If state has to kill a person as a form of deterrence, why make it painful. It is to ensure that death is quick and as painless as is scientifically possible, that these methods were adopted.

This idea of painless death is somehow and for some reason quite contrary to Islamic belief of capital punishment (or any punishment for that matter)

[toxic_pus]

Originally Posted by dabong1

Democracy-liberalism-atheism ect win hands down with the number of deaths that have created compared to religion during any time.......go ahead and compare the amount of people that have been killed during the last 250 years to the ones killed during the last 2000 years by your ideals of Democracy-liberalism-atheism.

Can we have some reference to such 'millions' of deaths due to democracy, liberalism and atheism.

[Durran3]

Democracy-liberalism-atheism ect win hands down with the number of deaths that have created compared to religion during any time.......go ahead and compare the amount of people that have been killed during the last 250 years to the ones killed during the last 2000 years by your ideals of Democracy-liberalism-atheism.

Please give us an example of where democracy, liberalism or secularim has been responsible for hundreds of millions of death in the name of democracy? If your bringing world war 2 into this you couldn't be more wrong and that argument can easily be refuted. I would like to get some insight as to how you came up with this absurd statement or maybe your just pulling these numbers from very dark places. While at the same time I can give you many examples of where millions were slaughtered in the name of religion.

The Wars that have been fought in the past 250 years have mostly been people standing up for themselves in various revolutions like The American Revolution, The French Revolution, countries trying to gain independence from the very clutches of relgion that had plagued western & Eastern europe for more than 1000 years. These revolutions consisted of people overthrowing monarchs, kings, dictators and high level aristocrats. This isn't so much killing in the name of democracy more so than killing & fighting to get rid of established monarchs and invidual freedoms.

Good....so you seem to understand that its not islam that has led to killings but the people behind it a lot like stalin and communism and Democracy and Bush......its not islam or Democracy that is the problem but the people that run the show?......or is islam to blame when something goes wrong but the same yardstickdoes not apply when Democracy-liberalism-atheism go wrong..

Yes bad people will do bad things regardless of any idea, but for good people to do bad things that requires religion. Someone running into a building and blowing himself up and killing civilians is a direct assault on innocent lives via clear cut religous motivation. The 19 alleged hijackers that ran into the World trade center killed in the name of religion. Half of those men were from Saudi Arabia, do you think it was capitlism and imperialism that was driving their motivation to slam into a building? Surely they could have enjoyed their lavish lifestyles in Saudi Arabia yet they chose to do Islam's bidding. The crusades where millions of Jews and Muslims were killed slaughtered by the christians, what exactly were the motivations behind those crusades? To capture Jeruselum right!! and why so? think about it.. The inquisition where almost a million women were killed because they were termed witches, why so? Did women pose a direct threat to the monarchs or was it religiously driven?

The only person that i know that killed in the name of supposedly Democracy and even that was NOT democracy was Napoleon who invaded Spain and many other countries to spread the French way of life and governance. Also you can't associate or affiliate democracy entirely with the United States, there are other countries like Canada and many in western europe who are representative democracy's as well. Just because the US goes and bombs some random country doesn't mean they are doing democracy's bidding unlike Osama bid Laden who has clear relgious motiviation to spread islam through his interpretation of the Quran. Democracy is NOT something you can spread, its something that comes from within, it comes from the grass root level and like one of the posters above said depends on the way the people think and what their lifestyles are. Its pretty obvious that in some places democracy does not work simply because of how those people are and how their culture is. Thats why when the US says its going around the world to spread democracy I take that with a grain of salt. Religion on the other hand thrives by spreading it into other countries, many countries that are formed today have been the result of many religous conquests by various factions.

The 65% Athiest/Agnostic figure is untrue......just becauce your not a member of the church does not make you an Athiest.

Also people who don't associate themselves with any religous institutions like a chruch but still believe in God are Deists, which are pretty much 80% Agnostic. They don't really believe in the concept of religion, the scriptures or any of that but they do believe in God.

Just for your info, America is not really a Christian nation that they so like to call it now adays. All the founding fathers of the United states were Deists, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Adams, surely if they were living in todays world they'd be Athiest as well. So George Bush doesn't even represent what America stood for or what it was founded upon

[TruthSeeker]

Deaths in 20th Century Wars, Conflicts and Repressions

Dear PDF reader,
Below is a list of the deaths in the 20th Century due to international wars, civil wars, repressions by governments, etc. I compiled this summary list from this source: Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

This source has a lot more detail about each conflict as well as the various death estimates that have been published for each. My list below is the "median" or "consensus" number for the particular "event". I compiled it on a spreadsheet and then ordered in descending order of the number of deaths. I thought it was useful to gain some perspective on the magnitude of similar events going on today, in the context of what has been human behavior and experience in the last 100 years. Conflicts causing less than 30,000 deaths were not included in my list but may be found at the source above. -- TS


Event --> Death Toll
Second World War (1937-45) --> 55,000,000
China (Mao's repression, 1949-1975) --> 40,000,000
Soviet Union (Stalin's repression, 1924-53) --> 20,000,000
First World War (1914-18) --> 15,000,000
Russian Civil War (1917-22) --> 9,000,000
Congo Free State (1886-1908) --> 8,000,000
Kinshasa Congo (Civil war, 1998 et seq.) --> 3,800,000
Second Indochina War (1960-75) --> 3,500,000
China (Nationalist era civil wars, 1928-37) --> 3,100,000
Korean War (1950-53) --> 2,800,000
German Expulsion from East Europe (1945-47) --> 2,100,000
Sudan (1983 et seq.) --> 1,900,000
Afghanistan (1979-2001) --> 1,800,000
Vietnam War (1965-73) --> 1,700,000
Armenian (Turkish massacres, 1915-23) --> 1,500,000
Ethiopia (1962-92) --> 1,400,000
Rwanda and Burundi (1959-95) --> 1,350,000
North Korea (1948 et seq.) --> 1,320,000
Iran-Iraq War (1980-88) --> 1,000,000
Mexican Revolution (1910-20) --> 1,000,000
Mozambique (1975-1992) --> 1,000,000
Nigeria (1966-70) --> 1,000,000
China ( Warlord era repression, 1917-28) --> 800,000
Cambodian Civil War (1970-75) --> 600,000
Tibet (Chinese repression, 1950 et seq.) --> 600,000
Angola (Government vs Unita, 1975-2002) --> 550,000
Algeria (Algerian independence, 1954-62) --> 537,000
Brazil Indian Genocide (1900 et seq.) --> 500,000
India-Pakistan Partition (1947) --> 500,000
Sudan (1955-72) --> 500,000
Spain (Civil War + Franco rule, 1936-75) --> 465,000
Vietnam ( Communist repression (1975 et seq.) --> 430,000
Abyssinian Conquest (1935-41) --> 400,000
First Indochina War (1945-54) --> 400,000
Indonesia (Repression of communists, 1965-66) --> 400,000
Somalia (Civil wars, 1991 - 2000) --> 400,000
Iraq ( International embargo, 1990-2003) --> 350,000
Portuguese Colonies (Colonial repression, 1900-25) --> 325,000
Iraq (Saddam Hussein repression, 1979-2003) --> 300,000
Kurdistan (1980's + 1990's) --> 300,000
Uganda (Obote vs NRA, 1979-86) --> 300,000
Uganda( Idi Amin's repression, 1972-79) --> 300,000
Amazonia (rubber company workers, 1900-12) --> 250,000
Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) --> 250,000
Turkey (Kurdish uprising, 1925-28) --> 250,000
Cambodian Civil War (1978-91) --> 225,000
Philippines Insurgency (1899-1902) --> 220,000
Colombia (La Violenca, 1946-58) --> 200,000
East Timor (Conquest by Indonesia (1975-99) --> 200,000
French Colonies (Colonial repression, 1900-40) --> 200,000
Guatemala (1960-1996) --> 200,000
Yugoslavia (Tito's repression, 1944-80) --> 200,000
Zaire (Dem. Rep. Congo Civil War, 1997) --> 200,000
Bosnia and Herzegovina (1992-95) --> 175,000
Maji-Maji Revolt, German East Africa (1905-07) --> 175,000
Greek Civil War (1943-49) --> 158,000
Lebanon (Civil strife,1975-90) --> 150,000
Liberia (Government vs NPF, 1989-97) --> 150,000
Romania (Communist repression, 1948-89) --> 150,000
Russo-Finnish War (1939-1940) --> 150,000
Balkan Wars (1912-13) --> 140,000
Burma/Myanmar (Civil wars, 1948 et seq.) --> 130,000
Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) --> 130,000
Libya (Resistance to Italian rule, 1911-31) --> 125,000
Israel (Wars with Arab States, Palestinians (1948 et seq) --> 110,000
Russia (Chechnya, 1994 et seq.) --> 80,000
Sri Lanka (1977- et seq.) --> 65,000
Peru (Shining Path insurrection, 1980-2000) --> 50,000
Chad (Habre regime, 1982-90) --> 40,000
South Korea (1948-49) --> 40,000
Tajikstan (Civil War, 1992-96) --> 40,000
Kashmir & Jammu, Civil War (1989 et seq.) --> 35,000


Conflict Death in 20th Century

[Durran3]

Thanks for taking the time out to list this.. Many of these wars have absolutely nothing to do with Democracy being the cause of war. Some are political uprising in the country by people who want change in regime, some civil wars, border conflicts, land conflicts, colonialism etc.

Its people like Zaid Hamid who spew bullshit and nonsense like Democracy, liberalism and secularism has been the reason for millions and millions of death in the past two hundred years. I can't believe that shmuck has the audacity to come on TV and talk nonsense