Hazrat Ayesha's Age at Marriage.

[Chanakya]

Ethical behavior transforms from time to time.

Hindu scriptures are filled with orgies committed by Gods and Goddesses, but one doesn't take that divine example as a permission slip to do the same here on Earth.

Morality and Ethics are subject to time.

No Ethical Behaviour is Universal and it doesnt change from time to time ... dont confuse morality with Ethics

Each Prophet came to the world with a message a divine mission. The Prophet is not divinity and he is a human being too

So you Agree that he is Prone to Mistake and his life cant be taken as example

[Chanakya]

Please do not pass off other peoples arguments and writing as your own - it is distasteful and dishonest. Your "rebuttal" is essentially a cut and paste from the discourse between the gentleman whose arguments I quoted and one of the Islam bashing bigots on the answering Islam site.
Here is the link to that response:

A 'Refutation' of Your Analysis of <i>Ayesha's</i> (ra) Age...

There is also included a rebuttal of the objections raised by the gentleman you "quoted

No My dear I never claimed that these are my Point .
But a truth remains truth whoever says it .
Theory of Relativity doesnt changes or looses its validity if a Thief and Mudrer writes about it
you didnt quote from other sources

[Chanakya]

Aryan 2007

Prophet is protected by divinity... Like the waves and the ocean are the same so are the prophets..

No , No one has right to behave unethical . no one is beyond humanity. prophethood is a claim which shall be proved by ethical behaviour .
you cant justify unethical behaviour just because u calim to be divine. this will lead to anarchy and end of civilisation.
there is already enough problem in this world because of this ideology

[Asim Aquil]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

No Ethical Behaviour is Universal and it doesnt change from time to time ... dont confuse morality with Ethics



So you Agree that he is Prone to Mistake and his life cant be taken as example

It is true that as a human being he could've made mistakes. However this is NOT a mistake.

Someone's life isn't just ONE example it's a series of examples.

[Asim Aquil]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Aryan 2007


No , No one has right to behave unethical . no one is beyond humanity. prophethood is a claim which shall be proved by ethical behaviour .
you cant justify unethical behaviour just because u calim to be divine. this will lead to anarchy and end of civilisation.
there is already enough problem in this world because of this ideology

The Prophethoods are based upon divine missions and their test is not ethical behavior.

Ethics can be set by the followers of the Prophets who all led them towards the ONE god.

[Asim Aquil]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

No My dear I never claimed that these are my Point .
But a truth remains truth whoever says it .
Theory of Relativity doesnt changes or looses its validity if a Thief and Mudrer writes about it
you didnt quote from other sources

Truth?

Your plagiarized posts haven't yet answered the fact that the word Bikr talks about a Virgin lady, not a Virgin toddler. Do you know how weird it sounds when you point at a toddler and need to clarify that she is a Virgin. She was obviously older.

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

No My dear I never claimed that these are my Point .
But a truth remains truth whoever says it .
Theory of Relativity doesnt changes or looses its validity if a Thief and Mudrer writes about it
you didnt quote from other sources

Chanakya,

There is a certain posting etiquette and rules of citation etc. that should be followed. In your response, nowhere do you indicate that you are quoting someone else, nor do you provide a link for the material you are using. You do put Moiz Amjad's arguments in quotes, and then post the arguments of Mr. Silas without any intimation as to what the source is.

I don't know about India, but in most respectable academic institutions you would be kicked out for plagiarism for resorting to the use of someone else's material the way you did.

Yes I do quote from other sources, and I try to make that quite clear, by using the quote feature or quotation marks, and statements indicating that I am quoting this, that or the other. This is pretty elementary stuff.

But a truth remains truth whoever says it .
Theory of Relativity doesnt changes or looses its validity if a Thief and Mudrer writes about it

Don't be a troll!

The truth is that Silas's arguments were torn down one by one in Moiz's last rebuttal that I posted. Silas appears to have chosen not to continue the exchange any further. If you find a rebuttal from him to these points somewhere else then let me know, I'll see if a can forward them onto Moiz Amjad for his explanation.

Cheers!

[Chanakya]

It is true that as a human being he could've made mistakes. However this is NOT a mistake.

Someone's life isn't just ONE example it's a series of examples.

Man ( more then 50 years ) marries a girl of 6 years -
its not a mistake ? then what is it ?

Someone's life isn't just ONE example it's a series of examples.

a devine life is One Example . any other life is a series of examples .
Every human have shades of black white and grey ..
every human lives in patches of good and bad behaviour
but anyone who claims to be devine has to be consistant

[Chanakya]

The Prophethoods are based upon divine missions and their test is not ethical behavior

any claim of Prophet hood is varified by his ethical teaching and ethical behaviour and
these ethical behaviour and teaching are relevant at all times and all places.
This is what seperates Buddha from the others who proclaimed prophethood like ,
Heaven's Gate,
Ordre du Temple Solaire,
Aum Shinrikyo,
the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God in Uganda,
the Church of the Lamb of God of Ervil LeBaron

Truth?

Your plagiarized posts haven't yet answered the fact that the word Bikr talks about a Virgin lady, not a Virgin toddler.
Do you know how weird it sounds when you point at a toddler and need to clarify that she is a Virgin. She was obviously older

Bikr means Virgin just as in English is not age specific . not a virgin Lady . you have added lady a virgin can be a girl of 6 or a lady of 24

[Chanakya]

Idon't know about India, but in most respectable academic institutions you would be kicked out for plagiarism
for resorting to the use of someone else's material the way you did.

Yes I do quote from other sources, and I try to make that quite clear,
by using the quote feature or quotation marks, and statements indicating that I am quoting this,
that or the other. This is pretty elementary stuff.

Plagiarism - the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them
as one's own original work.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

I never claimed that these are my views , in any discussion you quote from various logical and technical sources .
yes i didnt use quote feature or quotation marks. but that doesnt means i am claiming them to be mine .

and by the way check your earlier post you havent used quotation mark Dear . so dont jump around

[Chanakya]

Moiz Amjad has presented a series of erudite and detailed arguments as to why the generally accepted ‘Sunni’ understanding of Aisha’s age (i.e. nine-years-old) when she married and had sex with Muhammad, based on commonly known narratives, is erroneous and contradictory.

However, on closer inspection, it appears he has produced arguments that can be broadly categorized into five categories:

A. Unjustified slanders against Hisham ibn Urwah and the other Iraqi narrators.
B. The use of non-sahih information to refute otherwise sahih hadiths.
C. The use of secondary, indirect sources in preference of direct testimonies.
D. The use of ‘imprecise’ dating in preference to specific dates and statements of age.
E. Personal opinion.

For these reasons, I reject Moiz Amjad’s attempt to discredit the ‘Aisha age’ hadiths, particularly those of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim

I will now attach all the ‘Aisha age’ hadiths, both sahih and less sahih, noting that there is NO CONTRADICTION in the sahih hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim and Ibn Majah, and also those of Abu Dawud. The only contradictions are with those of ‘lesser’ authenticity such as the works of Tabari. and these are taken from various different sources and i dont claim to be mine

[Chanakya]

I will now attach all the ‘Aisha age’ hadiths, both sahih and less sahih, noting that there is NO CONTRADICTION in the sahih hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim and Ibn Majah, and also those of Abu Dawud. The only contradictions are with those of ‘lesser’ authenticity such as the works of Tabari.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3309:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Number 236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Number 234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, Number 2116
Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4916
Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune." She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair was up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine.

When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i 1 #18 p.108

A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah 3:1876 p.133

A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah 3:1877 p.134

‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.

‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and came the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.

[aryan2007]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Man ( more then 50 years ) marries a girl of 6 years -
its not a mistake ? then what is it ?

Symbolically.. for a Man of God nothing is wrong... he is beyond all this..

if a Muslim interprets this as acceptable behaviour for a mere mortal then I differ with his interpretation quite vehemently..

a devine life is One Example . any other life is a series of examples .
Every human have shades of black white and grey ..
every human lives in patches of good and bad behaviour
but anyone who claims to be devine has to be consistant

Humans are under the law of cause and effect and whatever their actions are will be judged.. God's judgement is not relative.. like it was middle ages 1 murder was allowed etc.. ethics, moral are always consistent..

but a divine life is beyond cause and effect.. and is perfectly ordained in what God ordains for it..
Even Hazrat Mian Mir after saying Guru Arjan Said if you agree I will raze the Moghul Kingdom to the ground.. Guru Arjan said if I wanted I could have but it is not God's will.. they were in Islam/Submission... so for they are steeped in a very advance karma yoga.. that is all their actions are performed by the Lord.. and all their results are offered to the God.. they are in effect not the doer but an instrument..

[Chanakya]

Symbolically.. for a Man of God nothing is wrong... he is beyond all this..

Sorry but u are justifying anarchy and buthery ..
who and what will decide if that man who proclaims to be a man of god?
there has been always inhuman massacre of gullible ppl in the name of prophet hood , so you mean to say its all right ?

The Jonestown Massacre
Cult Massacre - TIME

tell me what makes these ppl different from so called man of God and his accpetence of violence .
Ethics is ethics and it has origin in humanity which is the best sign of divinity

Humans are under the law of cause and effect and whatever their actions are will be judged.. God's judgement is not relative.. like it was middle ages 1 murder was allowed etc.. ethics, moral are always consistent..

but a divine life is beyond cause and effect.. and is perfectly ordained in what God ordains for it..
Even Hazrat Mian Mir after saying Guru Arjan Said if you agree I will raze the Moghul Kingdom to the ground.. Guru Arjan said if I wanted I could have but it is not God's will.. they were in Islam/Submission... so for they are steeped in a very advance karma yoga.. that is all their actions are performed by the Lord.. and all their results are offered to the God.. they are in effect not the doer but an instrument..

You think god is judgemental? he will judge humans and punish them ?
You mean to Say Gandhi and Mother Teresa will be punished because they were not muslim? ( as Per Quaran)
You mean to say every non christian will go to hell ( as per Bible )
sound like one egotistical maniac god concept .
god is pure .. beyond the judgemnt and purpose .

[aryan2007]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Sorry but u are justifying anarchy and buthery ..

No they can never be...

who and what will decide if that man who proclaims to be a man of god?

God.

there has been always inhuman massacre of gullible ppl in the name of prophet hood , so you mean to say its all right ?

massacres .. no.. if Krishna had 16000 wives.. then do you call that wrong?? on the contrary most symbolically mean that God always honours the wishes of his devoteed...

The Jonestown Massacre
Cult Massacre - TIME

those were cults.. like the cult of hate.. If you read the Quran.. as Gita.. you will see these people preached peace.. and what they did.. is inconsequential.. their teachings were revealed and the path to Godhood.. not thier actions.. Do you follow the author's actions or author's books??

tell me what makes these ppl different from so called man of God and his accpetence of violence .

Their actions and teachings were wrong..
The actions of the prophets can be as they wish.. their teachings are perfect...

Ethics is ethics and it has origin in humanity which is the best sign of divinity

Ethics and Morals.. help attune us and prevent lawlessness and regulate our free will..
Humanity can be considered a best sign of divinity in naivety.. Humans are blessed because it is in this life they can achieve Godhood which is rare in teh whole cosmos..

You think god is judgemental? he will judge humans and punish them ?

I think God is the merciful.. those who submit to his will, shall be spared those who do not.. will go to hell or heaven ... as determined by their free will...

You mean to Say Gandhi and Mother Teresa will be punished because they were not muslim? ( as Per Quaran)

God is the true judge of a Muslim.. Muslim here is different from followers of Quranic rituals.. they had realised most of the aims of Islam.. anyways Gandhi had god's name on his lips when he died.. so he is assuredly not Punished..

You mean to say every non christian will go to hell ( as per Bible )

No.. every person who realizes or strives the follow the theological or spiritiual goals of Christanity will definetly not go to Hell..

sound like one egotistical maniac god concept .

It is not.. it is the interpretation of the common... that is why our life is so complicatd...

god is pure .. beyond the judgemnt and purpose .

absolutely..