Alternate to G-3 Rifles for Pakistan Army

[Last Hope]

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Any news that what has happened to the MP-5?

About 4 years back, a letter was issued that all MP soldiers (at gates, posts) will carry a AK/Chinese version instead of MP-5, because the MP-5 did not have enough power to penetrate a bullet proof jacket, that was when the terrorism was at it's height. I was in Murree then, has it been inducted back now or still is the AK the norm?

We still see MP-5s. Sometimes on checkposts and gates but they always have an escort of HIT made AK variant and G3.
Airport police still uses the Mp-5.

[Saquib]

Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.

[Armstrong]

Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.

Source....?

[Fieldmarshal]

Heckler-Koch want PAK Army to adopt G36, HK MG43 in 5.56x45mm, HK 121 universal / general purpose machine gun to replace the LMG G42 this will built under licence and transfer of technology for POF for Polymers used in manufacture.

bad move as the 5.56 round has all but failed in actual combat and hence the americans and the europians are moving to other other calibers.
g-36 too has not proved to be a success and hence HK 416 and 417.
PA should go for HK 417 as it has removed all the kinks and faults that existed in G-3 and G-36. plus its 7.62 mm. the same caliber that G-3 is.

[TaimiKhan]

We not only need a change in our assault rifle, machine gun, but we also need to change the caliber from 7.62*51mm. I am not suggesting we go for a 5.56*45mm, but something in between, something which is lethal but light in nature, so that troops can carry more of these and they can control their weapon in automatic fire as well as in rapid single fire mode.

Get the design of HK-417 and incorporate it with a newer caliber.

Good thing would be to mate 7.62*39mm with HK-417 design, provided the 7.62*39mm caliber produces the required results.

Or go for something in the 6mm range.

But i would go for the AK-47 7.62*39mm caliber cartidge, since its already being produced and is lethal and troops can carry more of them.

Sniper mode should be 7.62*51mm, while we should also introduce a squad level machine gun like H&K MG3, which is awesome.

[Abingdonboy]

Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?

Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?

[Saquib]

HK want a major order for their weapons and they are after Pak army and I just have a gut feeling this is what will happen. if Pak army adopts the G36 this will be a major coup for both sides as the Europeans/Americans are cutting defence budgets. Saudis have just adopted and will built them in Saudi and guess who will be involved.......

[TaimiKhan]

Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?

Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?

With local production the cost goes down further. Since it will be produced in bulk, another factor in reducing of the cost.

And whenever done, it will happen in phases. It might take a few years, thus the cost would be spread over a number of years.

Well no future combat soldier kind of stuff currently in pipeline, but may be some of the little stuff is incorporated in the future, but may be a mixture of GPS and beidou.

[Saquib]

If Pak army are happy with G3 7.62mm why don't they go for a bullpup design they will have a shorter weapon size of M4. There must a weapon designer somewhere in POF who could design one using parts from G3.

[Axa-]

You guys need the MPT-1

[Grand-Vizier]

Maybe we can joint produce our new rifle ( This is not a licenced produce hk416 , its a fully turkish weapon , the hk416 production under licence has been cancelled for a domestic weapon , pics below)

[ANTIBODY]

Department of Defense - Description: THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT HAS BEGUN AN INTENSIVE SEARCH FOR A WEAPON TECHNOLOGY THAT WILL AT LEAST DOUBLE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE RIFLEMAN IN COMBAT. THIS PROGRAM BRIEFLY DESCRIBES THE FOUR ADVANCED FIREARM PROTOTYPES CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED BY INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS. THE NEW FIRING RANGE AT FT. BENNING WILL BE USED TO TEST THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE PROTOTYPES. A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE ARMY RIFLE IS ALSO PRESENTED. - 1991-02-26 - PIN 709024
US Army: Advanced Combat Rifle (ACR) Program [1989-1990]
Advanced Combat Rifle - Future Soldier Battlefield Weapon

[emotionless_teenage]

bad move as the 5.56 round has all but failed in actual combat and hence the americans and the europians are moving to other other calibers.
g-36 too has not proved to be a success and hence HK 416 and 417.
PA should go for HK 417 as it has removed all the kinks and faults that existed in G-3 and G-36. plus its 7.62 mm. the same caliber that G-3 is.

HK121 is a GPMG.thus it chambered the 7.62 NATO round.one of the main advantages of HK121 compared to older GPMG in service is that it's designed to be able to be operated as a LMG/SAW. this is crucial in boosting squad/section level firepower,thus enhancing the overall effectiveness of the infantry

G-36 is not a failure.main reason why it is never widely adopted is that most of third world country are still satisfied with their ARs or their AKs or their FALs. thus only SF personnel(outside Bundeswher) are able to get their hand on the gun.

HK416 was designed when the US found their M4s to be...less satisfactory,especially in the arid condition,with fine sand particle clogging their weapon.H&K comes out with a solution that enables the US military to update their assault weapon at the fraction of the cost of XM8,since they only need to change part of the upper receiver of the rifle,instead of investing in totally new(and unproven) weapon system.HK416 is basically an M4 with G-36 gas system

Or go for something in the 6mm range.

6.8 mm Remington SPC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

my guess?it won't going to be the next big thing unless the US is having another conventional war(5.56mm is good at CQB/MOUT operation,such as in Iraq)

[Thorough Pro]

Can I ask- PA is looking for alternatives to G-3 which is in use with 100,000s of units in service. Most aternatives stated here cost 3-5000 USD a peice so we are talking Billions of USD and a huge chunk of Pakistan's defence budget. And this is only for the rifle noting to do with other upgrades that must take place. How does PA expect to afford this?

Does PA have anything like the Futre Combat system in the works?

Can you indians ever discuss anything without bringing the "money" as your first criteria? First you raise a question about affordability then in the next breadth ask about PA plans for future combat system

If you can't discuss anything from pure operational efficiency point of view you should keep out of the thread, no one is interested in your sensless rants.

[Thorough Pro]

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This debate has been going on for quite some time with many members giving their recommendations some based on the "Looks" some on the caliber and some just for the sake of it.

First thing to be very clear baout is there does not exist one "Ultimate weapon", but there are many "Right" weapons for the various kinds of roles. Ideal would be to employ various different platforms best suited for various different roles, this can be done on a smaller scale for specialized operations but some kind of standardization would be desirable for mass deployment, firstly for the logistical reasons and secondly for the cost considerations.

Many members here critize 5.56 NATO for being ineffective (mostly based on reports coming out of Afghanistan), they are totally wrong. To start with 5.56 was designed/meannt to be "ineffective".... Ok...don't geet me wrong...heere is the explanation.

As an infantry man your primary objective is "NOT" to "kill" the oppponent soldier, but to put him out of action. whats the difference? A dead soldier is a deadsoldier, one less gun to fight with. An injured soldier is a logistical problem for the enemy, you not only put onesoldier out of commission by injuring him but also make 2 or 4 other soldiers to attend him/carry him. Use a transport Jeep/ambulance/helo to transport him back, pressure on hospital, on doctors, on medical logistics etc. etc. To this end both NATO 5.56 and Russian 5.45 are very effecctive, but this strategy does not work with irregular combatants like Taliban.

Coming back to PA main battelfield gun, we will have to identify the possible scenarios where this weapon will be / is expected to be used. Once we have identified the scenarios/roles we can then put down basic operational criteria like minimum effective range, accuracy in MOA, type of operation (single fire, Tri/Penta burst, Full auto, etc), mag capacity, use in extreme conditions (min/max temp), weight, attachment systemm etc..

Now based on these parameters a broad list can be drawn of the available weapons which can be compared against each other based on paper information to make a final list of 5/6 weapons, which can then be evaluated by offical tendering process, this is where the finer details like TOT, liscence manufacture, right to export, cost, and financingarrangements become part of equation.

Second option can be a to decideto develop a new plateform chambered for a totallly newcaliber, which is only possible when you have a well developed competetive infrastructure, which unfortunately we don't. We have been manufacturing G3 and MP5 variants for more than three decades but haven't come up with one single weapon of our own "design". Don't confuse it with adding folding or retractable stocks or chambering the same platform for anew caliber.

Now all this exercise wouldn't start because some PDF fanboy thought that "G3" was not cllo anymore or dreamed of a new "killler" looking gun. This would start if the operator (in this case PA) found any serious deficiencies or comes up with a new battelfield requirement that can not be met with the existing platform.

M16 or all of it's other variants though look pretty "cool", is quite accurate at 500/600 meters but this gun has some serious drawbacks...it's a maintenance hungry gun and prone to jamming specially in dusty /sandy environments, is "ineffective" killer but still it serves with majority of US ground forces.

AK47 and its variants (AK74/AK97 etc) are the most widely used, are very robust, durable and dependable wepon of alll times but seriously suck in terms of accuracy, but still half the wold armies still use it as their mainstay infantry weapon.

Now coming to G3, what are the real issues here? Weight, range, accuracy, mag capacity, caliber?Lets examine and compare with other weapons to see how far off this wepon is from other famous weapons used by major Armies and what advantage/disadvantage it gives to a regula PA soldier (not considering Special units here).

Comparison in the next post tomorrow.