Alternate to G-3 Rifles for Pakistan Army

[Blackpearl]

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Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:

1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.

3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.

4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).

5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.

6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.

So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre.
My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).

[Black Stone]

Blackwater, nice name.

I don't think we would provide you the M4.

[Mark Sien]

Blackwater, nice name.

I don't think we would provide you the M4.

M4s are already in use by Pakistani SSG.

The Turks also unveiled their Mehmetcik-1 rifle...which MKE is reportedly claiming to be their own developed product and not a licensed copy...though it looks a lot like HK416.

Pakistan's POF also has its PK-08.

[ahussains]

SO if there are shifting towards M4 or PK-08 it take a long time to get rid of G3 because its already used in huge quantity and i think G3 will be much effective then the M4 or Pk-08.

[JK!]

Newbie go to one of the threads in the army section where this has been debated to death.

There is lots of input from professional servicemen who have alot of good understanding and have separated truth from fiction.

[Mark Sien]

Chances are that PA will procure something local...either an upgraded variant of HK33, or maybe something jointly developed with MKE, Turkey.

MKE has an upgrade of HK33 called T-50 (picture) and a rifle that looks very similar to HK416 called Mehmetcik-1 (picture).

I suspect the growing cooperation between POF and MKE may result in PA's final rifle...either a Pakistani-license/variant of Mehmetcik-1 or a lot of T-50 elements going into PK-08...assuming plans to go to a lower calibre is still on the cards.

[fatman17]

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY:

Pakistan tests assault rifle

Andrew White Jane's Land Reporter - London

The Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) has procured 50 PK-8 assault rifles from Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) for evaluation tests as it considers changing calibre in line with NATO armed forces.

The PK-8, which fires the standard NATO 5.56 mm cartridge, has undergone tests in environments ranging from -40˚ C to +50˚ C and the system is being offered as a replacement for the army's existing armoury of 7.62 mm Heckler & Koch G3 assault rifles.
Complete with an Aimpoint optical sight and Picatinny rail for add-on ancillaries such as laser pointers and underslung grenade launchers, the PK-8 has a folding stock, shorter barrel and multiple parts commonality with its larger-calibre G3 relation, according to POF.

Any change in calibre for the army could see the procurement of around 500,000 assault rifles, although POF Director Syed Naseem Raza told Jane's that it was "very happy" with 7.62 mm weapon systems.

Industry sources at POF have recommended that any calibre change be gradually phased in, starting with procurements for the army's Special Service Group (SSG) and light infantry.

Currently, certain units within the Pakistan armed forces already use 5.56 mm systems.
Industry sources told Jane's that they were confident of seeing a new programme within a couple of years.

The army also uses 7.62 mm AK-47 assault rifles and 9 mm MP5 submachine guns.
Speaking at the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar in Karachi in 2006, General Ihsan, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff committee, said that a possible change from 7.62 mm to a more uniform NATO round was being considered.
However, Gen Ihsan admitted that there were "resource constraints" to consider before any decision was made: "We are very conscious of equipping our soldiers with the very best possible weapons and equipment, but we must prioritise our requirements," he said.
"We have paid substantial money into indigenous industry and we must first check this before we think about a changing calibre," said the general. Selecting the PK-8 means the MoD would not have to transfer technology from abroad to fulfil any contract.

[peshawar]

Pakistan Army is using POF delivered G-3 rifles. The weapon is actually from a rifle category, best suited for aimed shots. It has a longer range. but who needs long range now, and fire aimed shots. Also rifle is poor in kicking back on Shoulder. All over the world, Armies hav shifted to lower calibre: 5.56 mm. The advantages of 5.56 mm calibre over 7.62 mm (as in G-3) are:

1. Lower calibre means, lighter barrel: so lesser weight of the weapon.
2. Reduction in calibre means ammunition weight is reduced per round, so more bullets, may be carried. Thats why, mags for 5.56 calibres are 30 rounds mag instead of 20 rounds.

3. Lesser propellent in cartridge case, means low weapon recoil: thus better handling qualities.

4. Better handling qualities means, weapon is good in CQB (close quarter battles).

5. Pakistan Army is mostly fighting war in hilly region, where engagement ranges do not exceed 1500 meters. Thus '5.56' is ideally suited.

6. As weapon and its ammo is light weight, so soldier may carry weapons for longer duration, distances, causing less fatigue.

So i think, Pakistan should switch to 5.56 mm calibre.
My vote is for Colt M4 Carbine ( USA).

5.56 means the person you hit aint going to be down after getting hit
its stopping power is lowers
pakistan army is fighting a very determined enemy
if if injured he is going to fight back till death
which means 5.56 aint the best caliber which means 7.62 is better
BESIDE USA AND NATO IS GOING TO SHIFT TOWARDS 6.8MM cause 5.56 AINT GOOD ENOUGH
beside M4 has a serious jamming proble

[peshawar]

SO if there are shifting towards M4 or PK-08 it take a long time to get rid of G3 because its already used in huge quantity and i think G3 will be much effective then the M4 or Pk-08.

in defensive battles fought in plain envoirment of punjab and sind ya g3 is a great weapon
the loc style combat ya g3 is great

but in modren war fare and specially in the war in FATA n NWFP g3 is the reason pakistan army has suffered as much as some soilder may denie it its the truth

G3 IS TOO BIG TOO UGLY AND TOO UN RELIBLE

ak47 rules in FATA and NWFP terrain

thast why most of the troops deplyed in FATA use AK47 (now they shifted from g3 to ak)

beside have you guys ever seen 4 troops sitting in a jeep carrying g3s
seems stuck

[peshawar]

oh one more thing i have hurd about the PK8 and 5.56 version of g3
pakistan army wants to stick to 7.62
and its best option are AUG BUT THEY DONT LIKE THE 5.56
we might see an AUG with a 7.62
but then its just a roumer dont take it seriously but i sure hope its true

[Iceman]

debate all we wish to ... Pakistan is neither looking fwd to . nor planning to change rifle G-3 as the std assault wpn ....
y ... you have to keep in mind the amount of money that has gone into the project already .. we have full production facilities available to us .... and at this juncture there is no point in changing the wpn at all .. as far as latest dev in asslt rifles are concerned ... the R&D in POF are looking into it .. they have already manufactured lighter ... G-3 A3 with fibre bodies ..... and reduced recoil .. and i am sure more thoughts are going into it as well .. such as improved scope or NVDs for a std inf rifleman ... still running after a new wpn is not an option ... yes this wpn can be improved further and as i said earlier .. much is going on about that too .. i have seen the retractable hollow but rifle G-3 .. which is much much lighter than even the G-3 A3 ....
Plus .. Pakistan also has no plan to introduce 5.56 caliber as std arms ... some work has been done in this field but ... still .. no plans as such ..

[mohammad zafar ullah khan]

the g 3 is a great rifle as the main requirementr of the pakistan army conventional warfare and the m 4 rifle needs way too much maintenance plus the cost of shifting is too high

[SurvivoR]

I am so glad to hear that Pak is not going after the 5.56 caliber, since study after study it has been proven ineffective in various real life battle scenarios. The main issues are with weight and recoil and probably the length of the barrel as well in some cases. Well the biggest issue of recoil is what the POF should be working on and as Iceman pointed out it has been reduced, will have to look in to it.

POF should also be looking at the SCAR's interchangeable barrel quality. May be they could work out on it for the G3. These suggestions are based solely on the news that Pak is NOT looking to change its standard assault weapon.

On a similar note what about the std side arm / pistol? Do we manufacture any? I know that Musharraf used to carry a Glock (17 probably).

[Super Falcon]

do not forgot MP 5 also been used by our armed forces alot now time has came to upgarde version of MP 7 should be buy becoz MP 5 cannot panetrate any body armour

[Super Falcon]

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MP 7 way forward