India's spy satellite all set to keep a tab on Pakistan, China .

[zombie:-)]

Originally Posted by asq

And as per international laws taking pics of sansative areas of a country is also illegal and immoral, so the country has the right to atleast blind it.

lol no one sued google earth

[abrakadabra]

Originally Posted by asq

And as per international laws taking pics of sansative areas of a country is also illegal and immoral, so the country has the right to atleast blind it.

It is called espoinage, and I think it can be argued that it is unfair. But it does not amount to a formal declaration of a war.

Yes, countries have the right to blind the satellites by all means. But caanot shoot them down.

[IceCold]

Originally Posted by abrakadabra

It is called espoinage, and I think it can be argued that it is unfair. But it does not amount to a formal declaration of a war.

Yes, countries have the right to blind the satellites by all means. But caanot shoot them down.

We are talking about shooting it down in an event of war and not otherwise. Obviously everything is fair in love and war.
However i agree with the fact that if a satellite can be blinded by what ever techniques available out there, then it will be cost effective for Pakistan to do it without raising too much of eyebrows by testing an ASAT.

[paritosh]

Originally Posted by malaymishra123

You do realize that a 'spy sat' is on station for only a few minutes. It has to keep rotating around the earth. So one spy sat would give you coverage of an area for only a few minutes. It cant start monitoring the LoC or something like that. It can only take pictures at periodic intervals.

It is however useful for a LOT of other things, however, reducing infiltration is not one of them.

well since it has been launched by a PSLV...it can either be in a sun-synchronous orbit or a geo-stationary transfer orbit...if it was the former case..then the satellite can have like multiple revisits to one particular spot on the terrain...in one day...depends on it's elvation and angle...a GTO would be an inconvenient orbit for a spy satellite that has to cover atleast two whole countries for monitoring...

[paritosh]

Originally Posted by IceCold

We are talking about shooting it down in an event of war and not otherwise. Obviously everything is fair in love and war.
However i agree with the fact that if a satellite can be blinded by what ever techniques available out there, then it will be cost effective for Pakistan to do it without raising too much of eyebrows by testing an ASAT.

for a country that has had trouble with getting even one launch vehicle ready in more than 6 decades...that i believe would be wishful thinking.
you dont weapons rweady in an instant...you need a whole platform for them...takes like decades to build them..

[IceCold]

Originally Posted by paritosh

for a country that has had trouble with getting even one launch vehicle ready in more than 6 decades...that i believe would be wishful thinking.
you dont weapons rweady in an instant...you need a whole platform for them...takes like decades to build them..

Seriously what is with you guys? Apart from sarcasm every time we talk about countering it, i haven't seen anything constructive that adds to a positive debate.
Read my post in response to the articles quoted by godsavetheworld stating Pakistan's possible response, i have said the same. So what you are telling is nothing we don't know already so get it over with.

On a side note a few years ago we did not have the capability to develop a cruise missile. Right?

[gpit]

Originally Posted by malaymishra123

So according to you, India did not attack West Pakistan because of China?
You give China way too much credit. Allow me to elaborate below. Please read my post a couple of paragraphs below. Heck actually, what China did and has done to protect Pakistan during 1971 was less than minuscule compared to what the USA did. And even there, they could not do much, let alone China.

As I said, you lack of knowledge on this is amazing.

USA had a possible alternative plan to supply military aid to India if China invaded India. At least, the position for US was non-involving. See by yourself the following US document excerpts(US DoS).

101. Analytical Summary Prepared by the National Security
Council Staff1
Washington, July 12, 1971.

4. Seek to encourage Chinese restraint. If the Chinese appeared poised
to embark on a more aggressive and adventuristic policy toward South
Asia, we might seek to urge restraint through third powers with missions
in Peking. India could be informed of this effort in confidence.

In any event it would be in the U.S. interest to see
that hostilities do not expand to include third parties, particularly China.

2. Military Support.
…
(b) To India. The judgment of the paper is that military support to
India is a “less likely” strategy in the context of a limited Indo-Pak conflict,
but if China were to intervene we would want to consider military assistance
to India.6
6 In his memoirs, Kissinger points to the contingencies considered in the planning
paper in the event of Chinese intervention in a conflict between India and Pakistan and
concludes: “Nothing more contrary to the President’s foreign policy could have been
imagined.” (White House Years, p. 865)

93. Editorial Note “Henry Kissinger’s conversations in New Delhi on July 7, 1971, included
a significant exchange with Defense Minister Jagjivan Ram. At
Kissinger’s request, Ram assessed the Chinese military threat to India.
Kissinger observed that China might intervene on behalf of Pakistan
if there was a war between India and Pakistan. He assured Ram that
the United States would take a grave view of any Chinese move against
India.”

“Kissinger’s assurance to Defense Minister Ram contrasts with a
warning he purportedly gave to Ambassador L.K. Jha on July 17. According
to Kissinger’s appointment book, he met with Jha at the Western
White House in San Clemente, California, on July 17. (Library of
Congress, Manuscript Division, Kissinger Papers, Box 438, Miscellany,
1968–1976, Record of Schedule) An account of this meeting prepared
by Jha, cited by Seymour Hersh, indicates that Jha and Kissinger met
alone. Kissinger apparently did not prepare a record of the meeting.
According to Jha’s report of the meeting, as summarized by Hersh,
Kissinger conveyed the warning that if war broke out between India
and Pakistan and China became involved on Pakistan’s side, “we
would be unable to help you against China.”

… the fact that India had just signed the Treaty Of Friendship with the USSR, which clearly said that incase of any attack on India USSR would respond, right? The intent was quite clear. ..

… China is really not an issue when it comes to a war with Pakistan.

Nixon stated clearly, USA did not want to involve in SA as he did not want to add a new complex into his equation. From all information posted above, one can safely believe that his fleet was just a show. Every body knows that Indo-Soviet treaty was aiming at China, for China just fought a brief board war with Soviet years earlier and the animosity was at the peak.

You mention China to be the reason why West Pakistan was not attacked, the idea is laughable. Why then tell me, did China allow Indian Army to separate East Pakistan. Initially, it could have been that China thought that the issue was an internal affair of Pakistan, and thus should not intervene.And did not China gathering the small number of troops on the Indo-Chinese border constitute a threat against Indian action in Pakistan(in tis entirety)!

Precise amount of troop is unknown, even for today. Nonetheless, there was even a report stating that China was planning to invade India should India do not withdraw form E. Pakistan. ????1971??????????????--????--??

I am so surprise at your naivety, even absurdity, on this issue of China sending troops to E. Pakistan. If China would send troops, IMO, it would go directly for India Proper, perhaps New Delhi, as the above link says! In this way, China could deal India a psychological shock, for the whole country, as it did in 1962. It would totally collapse India's will of resistance, or rather, the attempt of aggression. And that would thwart Indians’ intention against E.P. by itself.

On the other hand, have you thought about if Bengali people did not like West Pakistani government, how could the Chinese possibly do anything? As I said this was their internal affaires. Chinese government saw that clearly. If China had sent troops in E.P., it is very likely that pro-independent people would have attacked Chinese troops. I hope you could still recall these lessons when you sent your troops to Sri Lanka.

Why then were they unsuccessful?

To the contrary, it was very successful. Because the result is, perhaps much to your horror, that an independent Pakistan still sands in the west of India today. This is the objective of China in 1971. This is the kind of help Pakistan needs the most.

Added to your horror is that now the people of Bangladesh also side itself more with China and Pakistan, and are safe guarding their interest tightly against its potential enemy. Perhaps you do know that in the Qingdao Navy Parade, Bangladesh warship BNS F18 Osman is purchased from China.

Then you dont know the Indo-Russian relations. Practically everything India(weapons and technology) wielded in the USSR era was Russian and at friendship prices....

Let’s see Russian “friendship price”:

“Russia has demanded $2 billion more from India for the refurbishment of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov” Russia Inflates Aircraft Carrier Admiral Gorshkov Price. and many other more…


Sorry for the digression, but it seems necessary to dismiss some twisted views that have been running rampantly on internet due to false propagandas.

[paritosh]

Originally Posted by IceCold

Seriously what is with you guys? Apart from sarcasm every time we talk about countering it, i haven't seen anything constructive that adds to a positive debate.
Read my post in response to the articles quoted by godsavetheworld stating Pakistan's possible response, i have said the same. So what you are telling is nothing we don't know already so get it over with.

On a side note a few years ago we did not have the capability to develop a cruise missile. Right?

Icecold...i am not being regressive or unpatriotic in my outlook...but it's just that i happen to be the 'enemy' here...
dude...i've had this discussion in another thread where me and some of your folks were trying to figure out ways to dismember a satellite...and all the ways that we could come out with required some amount of experience with launch vehicles...now pakistan doesnt have it right now...takes decades mate...so if Pakistan starts with an exo-reach program say...right now...they'd have the requisite experience in atleast 15-20 years of meticulous testing...(we took 40 yrs...since you already have good long range missile systems so it's half the time)
and even now it's totally not practical to shoot a 'somewhere there' satellite down...there are theories...

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

The satellite is great news but some media agencies are going over-the-top, hailing as the messiah which will deliver India from the evils of Pakistan and China.

[malaymishra123]

Originally Posted by gpit

As I said, you lack of knowledge on this is amazing.

USA had a possible alternative plan to supply military aid to India if China invaded India. At least, the position for US was non-involving. See by yourself the following US document excerpts(US DoS).

The plan had long been dropped. Those plans were acceptable in '62. Not when US wanted a rapproachment with China to counter USSR and considered Pakistan pivotal to Sino-American relationship.
Nixon had also visited China.

And ofcourse it was also the US who encouraged China to make military moves to deter India to act against Pakistan.

Nixon stated clearly, USA did not want to involve in SA as he did not want to add a new complex into his equation. From all information posted above, one can safely believe that his fleet was just a show.

Ofcourse, all Nixon said seems to be opposite to his actions in that period. The fact at the end of the day is he sent his fleet to intimidate India.

Every body knows that Indo-Soviet treaty was aiming at China, for China just fought a brief board war with Soviet years earlier and the animosity was at the peak.

Precise amount of troop is unknown, even for today. Nonetheless, there was even a report stating that China was planning to invade India should India do not withdraw form E. Pakistan.

Exactly. And that is one of the reasons why China could not even think about invading India. Because of the Treaty of Friendship with USSR. Any invasion of China in India would have led to USSR making military moves against China. Quid Pro Quo. China couldnt have done anything even if it had wanted to.

I am so surprise at your naivety, even absurdity, on this issue of China sending troops to E. Pakistan. If China would send troops, IMO, it would go directly for India Proper, perhaps New Delhi, as the above link says! In this way, China could deal India a psychological shock, for the whole country, as it did in 1962. It would totally collapse India's will of resistance, or rather, the attempt of aggression. And that would thwart Indians’ intention against E.P. by itself.

Where have i implied that China would have sent troops to E. Pakistan? Physically helping Pakistan means that China would have started its own war in the North, thereby diverting resources of India, and/or stop any attempt of aggression against Pakistan. But as i have explained before, China couldnt have done anything even if they wanted to. They were tied in.

On the other hand, have you thought about if Bengali people did not like West Pakistani government, how could the Chinese possibly do anything? As I said this was their internal affaires. Chinese government saw that clearly. If China had sent troops in E.P., it is very likely that pro-independent people would have attacked Chinese troops. I hope you could still recall these lessons when you sent your troops to Sri Lanka.

I agree, China could have helped Pakistan directly by starting war in the North. But it did not-it COULD NOT. And thats what matters.

To the contrary, it was very successful. Because the result is, perhaps much to your horror, that an independent Pakistan still sands in the west of India today. This is the objective of China in 1971. This is the kind of help Pakistan needs the most.

Successful? You call splitting of Pakistan in half successful for China? China's aim was to ensure that Pakistan was not broken up.

Or according to you, China only guaranteed that West Pakistan would not be attacked? Lol. Tell me your joking. At that time, it was Pakistan which was attacked directly by India and split in half. At that time, it was not the Pakistan as it exists today. China failed to stop India in attacking "Pakistan".

Frankly, breaking a country in half qualifies as an existential threat, and China or US could prevent it.

And China moved its troops to the border to warn against any Indian aggression in East Pakistan. And then the Indian Army walked in Pakistan and converted half to Bangladesh...Precisely what China threatened against. And what did China do while India carried out its operations-which were quite open and long actually? Twiddle its thumbs.

Like i said, moving of Chinese troops to the Indian-Chinese border was just posturing, and it made a fool out of China. India did exactly what it wanted to do despite China's threats of aggression in the North.

China cannot, even if it wants to protect Pakistan physically. It has failed to do so in the past as well. And by physically, i mean that starting a war against India, not sending troops to Pakistan to fight alongside them!

Added to your horror is that now the people of Bangladesh also side itself more with China and Pakistan, and are safe guarding their interest tightly against its potential enemy. Perhaps you do know that in the Qingdao Navy Parade, Bangladesh warship BNS F18 Osman is purchased from China.

Lol. You have serious problems in understanding the military capabilities of Bangladeshi Army or Navy if you think they can even begin to stop an Indian attack on Bangladesh.

Secondly, with their new govt in power, i see Bangladesh becoming more and more friendly with India day by day.

Let’s see Russian “friendship price”:

“Russia has demanded $2 billion more from India for the refurbishment of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov” Russia Inflates Aircraft Carrier Admiral Gorshkov Price. and many other more…

You deliberately try to obfuscate the issues. We are talking about Russian help in technology and equipment during the USSR days, not the present day Russia.

USSR had a completely different level of friendship with India. Read up, on how India bought equipment from Russia, on what prices, or loans. Dont be blinded by the way USSR treated China-how they never sold things at 'friendship prices' as what USSR called it, or how they never sold top of the line equipment to China.

Sorry for the digression, but it seems necessary to dismiss some twisted views that have been running rampantly on internet due to false propagandas.

It seems however that you are the one with some twisted views that have been running rampantly in China with goverment encouragement ofcourse!

[haawk]

farely speaking, i dont see china helping pakistan even in present times .... it might sell arms to pakistan (they exploit pakistan for their economic interests /and to keep india's focus elsewhere)but directly coming to its rescue-no way. they didnt even voice support for pakistan viz-a-viz mumbai .

[Sambha]

Originally Posted by haawk

farely speaking, i dont see china helping pakistan even in present times ....

Pak preferred China over IMF for an urgent loan. But something the Pakistani establishment doesn't seem to understand in all these years of "friendship" with China is that Chinese only talks money.

Now compare this to what Pakistan has done for China, it 'shipped' control of NE Kashmir to China as a token of "friendship".
I'd say a classic betrayal.

[IceCold]

Originally Posted by Sambha

Pak preferred China over IMF for an urgent loan. But something the Pakistani establishment doesn't seem to understand in all these years of "friendship" with China is that Chinese only talks money.

Now compare this to what Pakistan has done for China, it 'shipped' control of NE Kashmir to China as a token of "friendship".
I'd say a classic betrayal.

Keep your review to yourself man! The relationship between Pakistan and China is something beyond your norms of understanding so quit being an expert over the issue you have no clue about.

[IceCold]

Originally Posted by haawk

farely speaking, i dont see china helping pakistan even in present times

And you never will see. Now move on.

[Sambha]

Originally Posted by IceCold

Keep your review to yourself man! The relationship between Pakistan and China is something beyond your norms of understanding so quit being an expert over the issue you have no clue about.

Indeed.

I'd say it's beyond anyone's "norms".