MCA News & Discussions

[malaymishra123]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

This is exactly what I was talking about. There is no such thing as "completely Indian" in the aviation industry. Even the most advanced countries these days have joint projects. I guarantee there will be foreign help. I just don't see what is wrong with admitting it? We all know you're not going to try to reinvent the wheel, so why claim so?

Ofcourse not mate. India has left that path of trying to develop absolutely EVERYTHING inhouse. Now, only the strategic weapons and systems would be developed completely inhouse-that includes reinventing the wheel, but this is limited to only the strategic projects like ICBM, FBR, etc.

I meant completely Indian in the sense that the majority of the design and development would be done inhouse. Some components would be sourced from other non Indian companies.

[PAFAce]

Originally Posted by malaymishra123

Ofcourse not mate. India has left that path of trying to develop absolutely EVERYTHING inhouse. Now, only the strategic weapons and systems would be developed completely inhouse-that includes reinventing the wheel, but this is limited to only the strategic projects like ICBM, FBR, etc.

I meant completely Indian in the sense that the majority of the design and development would be done inhouse. Some components would be sourced from other non Indian companies.

Alright, fair enough, thanks for clarifying. Good stuff.

Just a few questions for clarification purposes. India has two separate next-gen programs going on, the PAK-FA with Russia (designated FGFA for India and T-50 for Russia) and one on their own (designated the MCA). Am I right in my understanding? Also, are the goals to produce one air-dominance and one multirole aircraft like the double edged sword of the F-22 and F-35? from what I've read so far, they both look like F-22 type aircraft, which could be a bit redundant, don't you think? How do you guys like this approach (it is your tax-money afterall)?

[paritosh]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

Alright, fair enough, thanks for clarifying. Good stuff.

Just a few questions for clarification purposes. India has two separate next-gen programs going on, the PAK-FA with Russia (designated FGFA for India and T-50 for Russia) and one on their own (designated the MCA). Am I right in my understanding? Also, are the goals to produce one air-dominance and one multirole aircraft like the double edged sword of the F-22 and F-35? from what I've read so far, they both look like F-22 type aircraft, which could be a bit redundant, don't you think? How do you guys like this approach (it is your tax-money afterall)?

well as far as i know...the difference b/w the MCA and the pak-fa is based on stealth majorly...while the MCA seeks to be a VLO plane...(thereby not being a 100% 5th gen)...the Pak-fa is supposed to be a 100% stealthy plane...incorporating what is being touted as the 'plasma-stealth' technology...

[Munir]

Well well, now MCA is only somparable with f22? Do I hear the same old sory of blown up ideas and wishes? I feel sorry for DRDO to end up like LCA...


India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft
(Photo: courtesy Ajai Shukla)







The Tejas Light Combat Aircraft aerobatics display at Aero India 09 in Bangalore in Feb 09. The LCA is now set to be followed by an Indian-developed Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA).

by Ajai Shukla
Bangalore, India
Business Standard

With India’s home-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) --- the Tejas --- flying successfully through its testing process, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has now signed up for an indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). Within days, the IAF and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for India’s own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore.

The MCA’s design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); the National Aeronautics Laboratory (NAL); Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.

The Director of ADA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, “The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule.”

According to Dr Subramaniam, the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build 5-6 prototypes at a cost of Rs 5000 crores. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA programme.

With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tons), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be India’s first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tons); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tons plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crores. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.

By 2020, when the IAF’s current fleet would have been largely phased out, MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russia’s Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.

The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer. The ADA Director points out, “None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor.”

India’s aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.

Says a senior MoD official: “With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level.”

[zombie:-)]

Originally Posted by paritosh

well as far as i know...the difference b/w the MCA and the pak-fa is based on stealth majorly...while the MCA seeks to be a VLO plane...(thereby not being a 100% 5th gen)...the Pak-fa is supposed to be a 100% stealthy plane...incorporating what is being touted as the 'plasma-stealth' technology...

mate your are right except for the plasma stealth part

plasma stealth is currently not mature enough to be incorporated

....when plasma stealth is developed it can be put on ANY EXISTING AIRCRAFT......

First developed by the Russians, plasma stealth technology is also known as “Active Stealth Technology”. Plasma stealth is a proposed process that uses ionized gas (plasma) to reduce the radar cross section (RCS) of an aircraft. A plasma stream is injected in front of the aircraft covering the entire body of the aircraft and absorbing most of the electromagnetic energy of the radar waves, thus making the aircraft difficult to detect.

The Keldysh Research Center has created a plasma generator that weights no more than 100 kilos, thus making it possible to be fitted on board most tactical aircraft. Current stealth technology uses radar absorbent materials (RAM) and angled surfaces that don’t reflect radar waves back. This constitutes as a main drawback, since an alteration of the airframe has negative effects on the flight characteristics of these aircraft. The third generation stealth technology F-22 Raptor seems however to be an exception since it is both a fast aicraft and very maneuverable.

Russian plasma stealth fighters

[PAFAce]

Originally Posted by zombie:-)

plasma stealth is currently not mature enough to be incorporated

Before any "next-generation" project in engineering, especially in defence engineering, there is a phase called the "technology thrust" phase. The entire purpose of this phase is to mature technology such that when it is time to enter EMD (Engineering and Manufacturing Design), the technology is available for use. It is one of the main reasons the defence industry is so vital to a country's technological industry.

I am sure that if the Russians have expressed interest in it, they have separate projects started with the sole purpose of maturing this particular technology.

Also, from what you guys are saying, the MCA will not be fifth-generation, but more like 4.75-gen with VLO but not really stealth. In that case, I'm guessing it will be your "secondary" frontline fighter whereas the FGFA will be the primary one. Regardless, it will force us to utilize our ingenuity and counter. Reminds you of cold-war era engineering battles between the Soviets and the Americans. Great contests ahead!

[Screaming Skull]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

Alright, fair enough, thanks for clarifying. Good stuff.

Just a few questions for clarification purposes. India has two separate next-gen programs going on, the PAK-FA with Russia (designated FGFA for India and T-50 for Russia) and one on their own (designated the MCA). Am I right in my understanding? Also, are the goals to produce one air-dominance and one multirole aircraft like the double edged sword of the F-22 and F-35? from what I've read so far, they both look like F-22 type aircraft, which could be a bit redundant, don't you think? How do you guys like this approach (it is your tax-money afterall)?

One major difference between PAK-FA and MCA will be the weight. While PAK-FA like the Raptor is expected to be a 40T category aircraft, the MCA is intended to be only 20T. Hence, the PAK-FA/FGFA will be the front line fighters of the IAF and the lighter and cheaper MCA will make up the numbers.

That said, the MCA will have many 5th gen features like internal weapons bay, serpentine shaped air intakes (as seen in the wind tunnel model), twin engines with TVC and low IR signatures and super-cruise capability etc.

So, yeah it is most likely to be somewhere between a 5th gen Raptor and a 4.5 gen EF-Typhoon. (Remember internal weapons bay itself puts it in a different league altogether)

[zombie:-)]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

Also, from what you guys are saying, the MCA will not be fifth-generation, but more like 4.75-gen with VLO but not really stealth. In that case, I'm guessing it will be your "secondary" frontline fighter whereas the FGFA will be the primary one. Regardless, it will force us to utilize our ingenuity and counter. Reminds you of cold-war era engineering battles between the Soviets and the Americans. Great contests ahead!

structurally itll be a 5 gen fighter aka internal weapons bay,RAM coating,possible supercruise capability ....but how many sub systems like avionics will be better than the current tech in the mki ....this is where i want to see progress .engine controls ... f-22 has a large number of sensors and the computer takes care of it all ...even if there is damage there are redundant systems so the aircraft does not lose power....IR supressing tech....new EW suits ,internal jammers....this is what im taking about

AND

with the new fighters there will be new weapons from russia for the FGFA and possibly they will be used on the MCA

[sancho]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

Also, from what you guys are saying, the MCA will not be fifth-generation, but more like 4.75-gen with VLO but not really stealth. In that case, I'm guessing it will be your "secondary" frontline fighter whereas the FGFA will be the primary one. Regardless, it will force us to utilize our ingenuity and counter. Reminds you of cold-war era engineering battles between the Soviets and the Americans. Great contests ahead!

It's always difficult to put the fighters in these categories but a 4.75 gen fighter is a 4. gen fighter with new added techs (F15SE). That won't be the case at MCA, it will be designed completely as a 5 gen stealth fighter.
The difference to FGFA will be size and main role, which is comparable to F15/F16 or F22/F35 combo.

[Screaming Skull]

MCA configuration options released by ADA in 2007.

Close up of MCA wind tunnel model released in 2009.

Check out the similarities between the designs of 2007 and 09. So, the MCA is not a shot in the dark after all. It is definitely a result of careful planning over the past few years. Hope all the agencies involved can take the whole project to its logical conclusion and deliver a truly 5th gen fighter in the desired time frame!

[sancho]

Originally Posted by Screaming Skull

Check out the similarities between the designs of 2007 and 09. So, the MCA is not a shot in the dark after all. It is definitely a result of careful planning over the past few years. Hope all the agencies involved can take the whole project to its logical conclusion and deliver a truly 5th gen fighter in the desired time frame!

Sure they planed everything long ago and in the right direction, but that all is worthless until LCA is not operational and Kaveri is not ready!
Both are the base to MCA and we have to fix those problems first, before we start a new Project.

[Screaming Skull]

Originally Posted by sancho

Sure they planed everything long ago and in the right direction, but that all is worthless until LCA is not operational and Kaveri is not ready!
Both are the base to MCA and we have to fix those problems first, before we start a new Project.

Ok I dug out this 'The Hindu' article just for you sancho. Addresses your two concerns about the LCA and the powerplant for MCA.

After LCA it’s Medium Combat Aircraft

BANGALORE: Even as the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, completed its 1011th flight successfully on Tuesday, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which has developed the LCA with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. as the principal partner, is planning to develop a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA).

Disclosing this to presspersons here, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Director-General and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister M. Natarajan said the MCA will be developed in association with the Indian Air Force (IAF), to suit its requirements. Mr. Natarajan was briefing journalists at the Aero India 2009 international seminar.

ADA Director P.S. Subramaniam later said that the MCA will have stealth features and the IAF has come forward to evolve the specifications of the aircraft, which could be described as the next generation fighter aircraft. He said the MCA is likely to be in the 20-tonne category, with a twin-engine aircraft, powered by the Kaveri-Snecma engine.

Weapon trials on Tejas have been going on after the LCA crossed 1,000 flights, according to Mr. Subramaniam. He said by March, integration of radars on Tejas would be completed.

“Once that is done, the system development activity (of LCA-Tejas) will be completed,” he added.

He said ADA was confident of delivering the LCA in Initial Operational Clearance configuration to the IAF by December 2010. Seven LCA prototypes — two technology demonstrators, three prototype vehicles and two LSP vehicles — are undergoing trial at various places across the country.

Young scientists, who earlier shied away from joining Government research agencies, appear to have changed their minds.

Mr. Natarajan said more than 50 per cent of the 7,000 scientists working for DRDO across the country are youngsters.

“We have a bright future with these youngsters,” said Mr. Natarajan.

“Every one need not be a gold medallist to be a researcher. What one needs is patience to see the product getting ready. Many who had left DRDO and went overseas wrote to us indicating their eagerness to rejoin. They were getting money but no work for their mind,” he said.

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : After LCA it’s Medium Combat Aircraft

[sancho]

Originally Posted by Screaming Skull

Ok I dug out this 'The Hindu' article just for you sancho. Addresses your two concerns about the LCA and the powerplant for MCA.

Thanks, but the article don't make me feel much better. It just says that MCA will use Kaveri-Snecma, but it isn't ready yet and still needs some years to be inducted at least into LCA. For MCA some article says it will have TVC or/and SC capabilities, which needs more time and experience (that we don't have right now) to build it.
The 1000 test flights of LCA mk1 are good, but the first that will be produced (maybe 2010) could be only trainer versions (without AESA radar) in limited numbers. Real operational squads may only come as LCA mk 2 by 2012/13(?), that's why I think we should keep focus on LCA and get it done to produce it in numbers as soon as possible. In the meantime we also get new techs through MRCA and Mki upg which will be a benefit for MCA development too, so there is no real need to hurry with MCA right now.
Also I think it would be a good idea to make a JV with other nations (Israel, France, or Germany) or companies (Dassault, EADS, Saab) out of it. Israel for example seems to be not so happy with F35 order, because of the huge costs and that US don't allow to customize it for their needs. But as a partner on MCA they can do nearly whatever they want, they has good knowledge of AESA radar avionics and weapons which would be very useful for such a project.
Imo the european countries and companies would welcome a JV too, because funding won't be a big problem for us and we can produce it much cheaper than they can, which will be a huge factor for exports!
Saab already works on a 5. gen fighter of medium size and double engine and all the countries that uses Gripen, or will use Gripen NG would be possible operators. So they come with experience and have already the market for exports.

[LCA]

As we all know many tech. of MCA will be from LCA ,MMRCA TOT , PAK-FA tech. spin off and rest of them developed by DRDO.

So i am trying to make the list of tech.. for MCA and its availability may be you guies help to make it more informative.

1. First is engine which we all know the joint venture of kaveri-snecma.
and the first flight of kaveri with snecma core with LCA is by the end 2009 or in fist of 2010.

2. Second is Radar for this i think 3-4 option are available.
a. radar from MMRCa winner CAPTOR-E if EF is winner,RBE-2(Rafale).
b. PAK-FA radar.
c. Israel EL-2052.
d. India's indigenous AESA Radar.

3. Flight control system as we all know india already have FBW system and trying for fly-by-light system which they looking for PAK-FA,definitely they use in MCA if they succeded to achieve.

4. For avionics and EW it will get a lot from LCA and again some vital part form MMRCA and PAK-FA

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/In...s-Radiance.pdf

"Go through this pdf it have lot of information about avionics and EW"

For EW it signify that india already developed DRFM by 2003 it also mention during AI-09 and they are developing more advance technology.

Bharat Rakshak • View topic - Aero India 2009

5. We already mastered composites technolgy.

6. Same goes for designing and integrating a fighter jet,also the glass cockpit--thanks to "Tejas".

For me it look very get able by 2017 and this time IAF also included in the development from begining,unlike LCA.
So, we can say DRDO is learning from past mistakes.

it will very grateful if u guies added more to the list.

[malaymishra123]

Originally Posted by PAFAce

Alright, fair enough, thanks for clarifying. Good stuff.

Just a few questions for clarification purposes. India has two separate next-gen programs going on, the PAK-FA with Russia (designated FGFA for India and T-50 for Russia) and one on their own (designated the MCA). Am I right in my understanding? Also, are the goals to produce one air-dominance and one multirole aircraft like the double edged sword of the F-22 and F-35? from what I've read so far, they both look like F-22 type aircraft, which could be a bit redundant, don't you think? How do you guys like this approach (it is your tax-money afterall)?

The operative words here are weight and cost. The weight of the MCA will be in the medium category, while the FGFA will be a heavy plane like the F-22. The MCA will be cheaper than the FGFA and will be used for filling up the numbers.

MCA will not be , nor is intended to be like the F-22, thats the FGFA's role and job.

All planes nowadays are multirole, doubly so for the next generation planes. The USAF designates the F-22 as the F/A-22 implying its ground attack role as well. It will in all probability exceed in efficiency in a strike role compared to the F-35. It all boils down to cost. F-22 is costly, and is in limited numbers, F-35 fills the numbers while being relatively cheaper. Ergo the FGFA and the MCA. Its not a clash of roles.