Facts on Siachen

[Syama Ayas]

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Goa?

A vestige of colonial era imperialism , where Jews too were persecuted. Besides Goans call themselves Indians.

"Peaceful" nuclear explosions?

Surrounded by a Hostile Nexus, of USA, China & Pakistan, with 2 of them being nuclear powers.

The Atlantique incident?

Standard Operational Procedure (SOP)

Are you blind that you don't see such acts by India as unsanctioned aggression?

Both Pakistan and India have dirty hands but India may have a chance to pull both countries out of the morass this time. Why not give it a shot?

India does have dirty hands, but those above are not examples of such.

[Solomon2]

India does have dirty hands, but those above are not examples of such.

You could have just said, "Yes, I am blind."

[Abhishek_]

xxxxx

i don't see the need for your circular arguments.
Indian stand is crystal clear: no drawdown till current positions are recognized.

[Rajputana]

Bad timing, the Pakmil was still ascendant.

And in your opinion it is not so any more.

No need to unduly encourage the jackals. Begin not by abandoning positions but with small, highly-publicized reductions-in-force. By Pakistan's response you'll know who and what you're dealing with this time.

The current stand-off has prompted Military and Politicians to rethink their stand of never giving up on Siachen, we can expect further progress just by maintaining status quo.

We both are oblivious of operational requirements in Siachen, reduction in forces may mean abandoning peaks, after all that is all that is to siachen, just occupied peaks.

[Abingdonboy]

I heard IA already told political leadership that if Siachen is vacated and forces pulled back and PA takes advantage of the situation, its close to impossible to take it back.

Not impossible (nothing is impossible for IA) but very,very hard and likely to be very,very bloody as in these sort of conditions the SOP is generally the attackers trying to re-take a higher position with entrenched defenders have to try and operate with a 9:1 advantage.

[DDLJ]

Goa?

Goa was certainly not an Aggression but flushing away foreigners because the Portuguese were not enlightened enough to follow what British or French did.

[Solomon2]

i don't see the need for your circular arguments.

What was missed was that it takes two to tango and the views and interpretations of non-Indians are also a factor in judgment. I'm afraid the only circular arguments here are the Indian ones, like referring back to a U.N. resolution condemning colonialism that India twisted to wield as an excuse for conquest.

Indian stand is crystal clear: no drawdown till current positions are recognized.

And is that stubbornness really worth what it costs to both India and Pakistan?

And in your opinion it is not so any more.

Yes, it's only my opinion.

The current stand-off has prompted Military and Politicians to rethink their stand of never giving up on Siachen, we can expect further progress just by maintaining status quo.

Depends what you call "progress": peace between India and Pakistan or Pakistan continuing to crack apart.

We both are oblivious of operational requirements in Siachen, reduction in forces may mean abandoning peaks, after all that is all that is to siachen, just occupied peaks.

The knowledgeable can evaluate these ideas for themselves, yes. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals logistics.

[Abhishek_]

And is that stubbornness really worth what it costs to both India and Pakistan?

It is for India. rather evident isn't it since it is not India calling for the resolution

[ashokdeiva]

What was missed was that it takes two to tango and the views and interpretations of non-Indians are also a factor in judgment. I'm afraid the only circular arguments here are the Indian ones, like referring back to a U.N. resolution condemning colonialism that India twisted to wield as an excuse for conquest.

And is that stubbornness really worth what it costs to both India and Pakistan?

its very easy for you to say any thing that you say. If the IA feels that its suffering a lot operating at that hight, we the people of INDIA would have honored the request of our soldiers to return back to our bases in low ground, but they are the ones who asked the INDIAN government to move their soldiers to that land and so now its their decession to return back or hold the high grounds.
if IA suggest that we stay on top, we will not draw down as its in our Armys interest, if the Pakistani side feel they are staying their is waste of their resources and not worth the cost they can draw down and fore sure we will not occupy the grounds that they leave behind as they have done in the Kargil case. we are men of honor and word.

[Rajputana]

What was missed was that it takes two to tango and the views and interpretations of non-Indians are also a factor in judgment. I'm afraid the only circular arguments here are the Indian ones, like referring back to a U.N. resolution condemning colonialism that India twisted to wield as an excuse for conquest.

Do you support colonialism?

And is that stubbornness really worth what it costs to both India and Pakistan?

Costs are relative, Indian human cost in Siachen is hardly any different now from any operational casualty rate a military face anyplace.

Yes, it's only my opinion.

Apparently professionals dealing with Pakmil day in and out have differing opinions.

Depends what you call "progress": peace between India and Pakistan or Pakistan continuing to crack apart.

Crack apart, like dismantling and virtual disappearance of kashmiri mujahideen support in PakOK?

The knowledgeable can evaluate these ideas for themselves, yes. Amateurs talk tactics, professionals logistics.

Your ideas as an external observer are welcome, but need to stand up to scrutiny of ground realities.

[Solomon2]

Do you support colonialism?

A peaceful transition for Goa would have been far preferable. Look at how the Chinese got Hong Kong back: the advantages of continued trade with China far exceeded the annoyance that would have been incurred had the Brits tried to keep HK after the lease expired. The eventual peaceful transition was made possible because both China and Britain cultivated good informal relations with each other.

Costs are relative, Indian human cost in Siachen is hardly any different now from any operational casualty rate a military face anyplace...

Apparently professionals dealing with Pakmil day in and out have differing opinions...Your ideas as an external observer are welcome, but need to stand up to scrutiny of ground realities.

You are forgetting what the generals lack, for it necessarily is not part of their mission: vision. It's for the civilian leadership to set the task and the military to achieve it. Letting blind enforcement of sovereignty claims dictate hostility is to let the tail wag the dog.

[Abhishek_]

^ we are still waiting to hear any credible harm in recognizing the current ground positions.

[Abingdonboy]

A peaceful transition for Goa would have been far preferable. Look at how the Chinese got Hong Kong back: the advantages of continued trade with China far exceeded the annoyance that would have been incurred had the Brits tried to keep HK after the lease expired. The eventual peaceful transition was made possible because both China and Britain cultivated good informal relations with each other.

Costs are relative, Indian human cost in Siachen is hardly any different now from any operational casualty rate a military face anyplace...

You are forgetting what the generals lack, for it necessarily is not part of their mission: vision. It's for the civilian leadership to set the task and the military to achieve it. Letting blind enforcement of sovereignty claims dictate hostility is to let the tail wag the dog.

Just because Pakistan pays a high human cost in Siachin doesn't mean it's the same for India- not a single soldier has died from altitude/cold related issues since 2008. The IA is perhaps the finest mountain warfare fighting force on the planet but this title has been earnt at a human cost up and till mid-2000s when this cost paid dividends to later soldiers deployed there.

[Indian009]

Mr. Solomon why didn't you see the time frame that Protuges got for that peaceful withdrawal ??? India got its INDEPENDANCE in 1947. Do you know when Goa operation happen ??? Or did you want the people of Goa should have waited still their ruler got boared and move out ???

[ashokdeiva]

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A peaceful transition for Goa would have been far preferable. Look at how the Chinese got Hong Kong back: the advantages of continued trade with China far exceeded the annoyance that would have been incurred had the Brits tried to keep HK after the lease expired. The eventual peaceful transition was made possible because both China and Britain cultivated good informal relations with each other.

Basically what you are saying is that we jumped guns, sorry you feel that way. We can not go and stand in front of the PORTUGUES with hands folded and beg them to leave the land that rightfully belongs to INDIANS. they should have handed over the administration the moment they realized that INDIA is now a free nation and they can no longer enslave them.
On the other hand HK is a case appart where UK had HK local support which the CHINESE respected but it was not the case with GOA.