DNA exclusive: Nothing new about Pak’s latest missile, scientists tell PM

[The HBS Guy]

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Image intel is useful, but very misleading..
for eg.. during the 80's when both the Mig-29 and Su-27 were being tested at the Ramenskoye flight test centre in Russia ..US sat pictures of them had many analysts confused in thinking they were one and the same aircraft..

When the Russians took out a new missile...
The Americans did three things..
first was to move a sat overheard,
the second was to position a RC-135S "cobra ball" aircraft as close as they could get to the borders of the Soviet union.
and the third was a Cobra judy ship which in conjunction with Cobra ball monitored the missile's flight path.

Using a combination of these three things, they could then judge the changes in the missile..even though they may look outwardly similar.

What India should have(probably did do..or not) was use the image..and position its Green Pine radar towards Pakistan to gather as much data as it could have on the Missile. Only then could it have enough data to come up with such a "fatwa"..

Conclusions like these ..are similar to those that stated the JF-17 as an improved Mig-21.

You're assuming that the Indian scientists are relying on satellite imagery alone.

[killerx]

nothing new about agni V either you are 500 km short for ICBM range mate

You're assuming that the Indian scientists are relying on satellite imagery alone.

what you got some thing more stupid

[ptltejas]

Well its a lengthy and complicated topic to discuss, and i am no rocket scientist

But just a few factors which can influence the range of a rocket. A better rocket engine will provide more thrust, thus enabling the same missile with the same fuel to be launched further away. better fuel, quality wise can also help in achieving more range. Such kind of changes are first tested on the ground, giving the scientists the idea how better is the rocket engine working or how better is the fuel & its consumption time. With these calculations, the scientists can calculate that with such thrust and this much fuel and this much weight, the missile can be launched this far. Even aerodynamic changes helping in reduced drag can help in achieving a better range.

hope i made little bit of sense.

I dont know but if it is not 100% tested its doubtful for its success. missiles must be tested 100%.... well no doubt scientists are even pre testing rockets parts and send that in the trajectory, But I think the test for missiles at full range necessary.

[Oscar]

You're assuming that the Indian scientists are relying on satellite imagery alone.

The article assumes that whatever the Indian scientests have come up with is a 100% accurate.
Apart from some fanboys here, no-one ever claimed the missile to be an ICBM of 4500km range or whatever..
Yet.. the article admits to changes in the missile but dismisses them as merely cosmetic??

So either Indian Scientists are stupid(I think not) or the Article is written by an idiot or I should stop listening to even the horse's mouth in matters such as these and believe some random Indian news paper article.
I dont ask that you swallow it hook line and sinker.. please..believe all you wish..
DONT ASK ME TO.

[TaimiKhan]

I dont know but if it is not 100% tested its doubtful for its success. missiles must be tested 100%.... well no doubt scientists are even pre testing rockets parts and send that in the trajectory, But I think the test for missiles at full range necessary.

ed

Every missile does not needs to be tested to its maximum range in each test. 3-4 tests sending the missile close to its original target can also validate that if required, the missile can travel to its max, since in all its previous tests it covered the intended range.

But i agree, missile do need full range testing, and i do believe so, they are done also on specific occasions.

And i am no technical person, but i believe missiles getting tested at shorter ranges to hit specific missiles give scientists more confidence, that the missile can not only target its target at its max range, but its also good enough at shorter ranges too. And that is something which we require a lot, as sometimes the 1000Km range missile may have to go at a 700Km target, where we have no such other missile to achieve the same range. Meaning e.g we have a 350Km range missile named Rocket-1 and rocket 2 is a 800Km range missile, now rocket 2 will have to target anything lying at 351Km to 800KM.

[samantk]

The article assumes that whatever the Indian scientests have come up with is a 100% accurate.
Apart from some fanboys here, no-one ever claimed the missile to be an ICBM of 4500km range or whatever..
Yet.. the article admits to changes in the missile but dismisses them as merely cosmetic??

So either Indian Scientists are stupid(I think not) or the Article is written by an idiot or I should stop listening to even the horse's mouth in matters such as these and believe some random Indian news paper article.
I dont ask that you swallow it hook line and sinker.. please..believe all you wish..
DONT ASK ME TO.

While I already said that the article is filled with Jingoism the conclusions sums up what the report actually wanted to convey which was

This particular study suggests that the latest Pakistani missile test does not cause too much worry to the Indian establishment. There was an anticipation of such a tit-for-tat launch. Now that the data suggests that it was basically old wine in new bottle with minor tinkering, the Bangalore-based monitoring agency appears to be satisfied.

The bold part is what I believe the report suggested. It 'does not cause too much worry to the Indian establishment' The gist is the enhancement present does not cause a worry and which might be true, I again remain undecided here as I assume that Indian scientist would know what they are talking about, the enhancements while being significant for the development does not effect an increased threat IMHO...

[Mech]

Moreover the persons to have said something about the missile back up there are experts, and not fanboys.

My friend, the guy you are talking to; is not a fan-boy. *facepalm*

[Bl[i]tZ]

The article assumes that whatever the Indian scientests have come up with is a 100% accurate.
Apart from some fanboys here, no-one ever claimed the missile to be an ICBM of 4500km range or whatever..
Yet.. the article admits to changes in the missile but dismisses them as merely cosmetic??

So either Indian Scientists are stupid(I think not) or the Article is written by an idiot or I should stop listening to even the horse's mouth in matters such as these and believe some random Indian news paper article.
I dont ask that you swallow it hook line and sinker.. please..believe all you wish..
DONT ASK ME TO.

What is your and TaimiKhan's authority on this subject other than talking in hyperboles and putting pictures of physically similar aircraft and sayin tat since their avionics are different and so I claim that the recent missile is better then the last one even if you fail to provide a single data point to prove that.

These guys have PhD in their fileds, they fired a missile of a range of 5k, they regularly send satellites in the outer space. Their assesment is based on parameters of the missile and how it actually performed that day. Why should I believe you (a forummer) and not them?

There is a limit to discrediting something just because it is Indian.

Here is the simple logic (I hope you get it) - if you know the missile's start point, impact point and trajectory (the max. height it obtained), the no. of stages it has, weights of these stages. you can definitely tell what's the improvement (plus you already have date from previous launches). If there would be an improved range, the angle at which the missile will be thrown would be different or its payload will be changed. But then again, I'm just a forummer, just like you, may be a little better or worse. I've no scientific authority in this field, which you are claiming comes to you naturally just because Indian scientists have said other wise.

Lets put an end to this tirade now.

[JayAtl]

heh. we have people comparing missiles to aircrafts in their counter argument. regardless, who cares what Pakistan has - it's china whom you seek to have a defensive deterrent against.

[Oscar]

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What is your and TaimiKhan's authority on this subject other than talking in hyperboles and putting pictures of physically similar aircraft and sayin tat since their avionics are different and so I claim that the recent missile is better then the last one even if you fail to provide a single data point to prove that.

These guys have PhD in their fileds, they fired a missile of a range of 5k, they regularly send satellites in the outer space. Their assesment is based on parameters of the missile and how it actually performed that day. Why should I believe you (a forummer) and not them?

There is a limit to discrediting something just because it is Indian.

Here is the simple logic (I hope you get it) - if you know the missile's start point, impact point and trajectory (the max. height it obtained), the no. of stages it has, weights of these stages. you can definitely tell what's the improvement (plus you already have date from previous launches). If there would be an improved range, the angle at which the missile will be thrown would be different or its payload will be changed. But then again, I'm just a forummer, just like you, may be a little better or worse. I've no scientific authority in this field, which you are claiming comes to you naturally just because Indian scientists have said other wise.

Lets put an end to this tirade now.

Incorrect.. this is where many Indian members show this retreat posture into being targeted because they are Indian.
Those scientists or those that are reporting them have stated nothing..
If US image intelligence analysts with years of experience could not dicern the difference between two different aircraft using images.. I wonder if the same can be done by your brilliant ones.
I have stated before.. they probably used a lot more to come up with those conclusions.. which(if the article is to taken on face level) is incorrect.
As to how I would know.. I spend two years working and interacting with those people that put systems like these to work.
So I do know.. an employee of DRDO working on RISAT may not know all about Agni-V.. but he definitely know more than you do.

There may or may not be an improvement in range.. but the subtle changes carry a lot more than just minor tweaks.