JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Sapper]

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I see - In your opinion, is that the way the technical capablity, doctrine and tactics associated with diferent fighter jets, should be viewed - how is that useful?

Its like asking a teacher to burn the exam-papers(answer sheets) without grading.

Different "Generations" of fighters are to help people/users understand the "grading" of fighter planes ... just like a pupils are graded As,Bs etc ... fighter planes are graded 4rth Gen, 5th Gen etc.

[Tempest II]

So far no stealth ability.....Its 4th generation fighter....It cannot go against F-16 Block 52 or 60 or SU 30 , they have batter engine , radar and avionics....... but yes it can comparable with F-16 Block 40, Mig 29.

I think your statement is misleading too. Any fighter can go against any other fighter, but the question is of the odds (i.e. probability) of coming out in one piece ASSUMING EVERYTHING ELSE IS EQUAL ON THE TWO OPPOSING SIDES.

Mig-29 ... ...hmmm? We have several version with very wide range of capabilities. You need to be more specific and say which version you think is comparable to the FC-1.

[maverick2009]

JF17 will be a very smart and cost effective way to replace in particular the very old mirage 3/5 airframes. These are over 40 years old.

The dilemma for PAF by 2015 IAF will be fielding 280 su30mki (IAF abt to order 50 more mki) and prehaps another 126 F18SH/RAFALE/TYPHOON class fighters.

Thats 400 fighters probably 2/3RDS OF IAF will be one generation newer than JF17 BY 2020.

The JF17 May become obselete in face of IAF massive Flanker/mmrca programme very quickly.

[PAFAce]

Its like asking a teacher to burn the exam-papers(answer sheets) without grading.

Different "generations" of fighters are to help people/users understand the "grading" of fighter planes ... just like a pupils are graded As,Bs etc ... fighter planes are graded 4rth Gen, 5th Gen etc.

No, sir. Generation figures for aircraft are given based on the generation of engineering or technical development, they are not based on capabilities. Capabilities are not part of the equation, as they can be abstract. Engineering is not.

Therefore, a 4th generation aircraft is not inferior to a 4.5th generation aircraft, it is merely technically older. Superiority in any scenario very much depends on who and what we are talking about. Technically, a 4.5th generation aircraft will include engineering features not included in early 4th generation aircraft. That's it. It will not be a grade of its capabilities (A+, A etc).

Good list, though a few things I disagree with. Early Hornet and early Falcon were very similar in capabilities, and the Falcon has always been a better air-combat fighter. So if the JF-17 is just slightly inferior to the Block 15 F-16, how can it be severely inferior to the early F/A-18s? This and a few other things I don't agree with. But then again, this is your opinion. It can't be judged as right or wrong.

[maverick2009]

F18 Super hornets and in deed F15 EAGLES are twin engined Fighters.

They carry bigger radars bigger Arms payload and over longer distances.

They also carry more jammers and can survive a direct hit in some cases having 2 engines.

The F16 like the JF17 is single engine and smaller size. Less powerful radars less load and range. LESS chance of surviving a direct hit.

But single engines means

Cheaper to buy and maintain.
Quicker sortie rates
one pilot
LOWER RCS some times.

Having said this the worlds best ranked fighters are all twin engines.

F22
Typhoon/Rafale
SU35/SU30MKI
F18S/H F15S

[BATMAN]

JF17 will be a very smart and cost effective way to replace in particular the very old mirage 3/5 airframes. These are over 40 years old.

The dilemma for PAF by 2015 IAF will be fielding 280 su30mki (IAF abt to order 50 more mki) and prehaps another 126 F18SH/RAFALE/TYPHOON class fighters.

Thats 400 fighters probably 2/3RDS OF IAF will be one generation newer than JF17 BY 2020.

The JF17 May become obselete in face of IAF massive Flanker/mmrca programme very quickly.

Who asked you about dilemma of PAF?
I hope you know since how many years indians are dreaming to have 126 planes like F-16 or F-18? perhaps since 1990! what makes you think that it will ever materialize?
So please, make all your superficial claims about SU30 and F-18 in respective threads.
Don't expect PAF or JF-17 to be static by 2020

[maverick2009]

batman.

No body is dreaming Over 100 mki & Phalcon Awacs here Tonite.

You or I indeed can,t change the Geopolitics of a India USA nexus.

F18 SH are coming with AESA TOT and more goodies like C17 Galaxy P8 posedions. JUST LIKE USA ripped nuke treaty for India benefits.

This is not just an Arms deal but a poitical deal.

Having Said that you nerver know with Indian BABUS they just buy Typhoon or Rafale.

[BATMAN]

LESS chance of surviving a direct hit.

Where did this come from?

Having said this the worlds best ranked fighters are all twin engines.

F22
Typhoon/Rafale
SU35/SU30MKI
F18S/H F15S

Did you flew SU-30 against F-16 at red flag?
FYI, F-16 is ranked the best fighter and it is proven in battels and mock up excercises.
Single engine fighters are always the better dog fighters and if equiped with best stand off wepons than twin engine is as much on risk as single engine.

[maverick2009]

Batman.

F22 SU30 F15 RAFALE AND TYPHOON are twin engined for the reasons mentioned above.

F16 is good platform thanks to APG radar and Amraams.

But that means nothing to the poor JF17 pilot who has to fly against 400 su30mki and mmrca

[BATMAN]

batman.

No body is dreaming Over 100 mki & Phalcon Awacs here Tonite.

You or I indeed can,t change the Geopolitics of a India USA nexus.

F18 SH are coming with AESA TOT and more goodies like C17 Galaxy P8 posedions. JUST LIKE USA ripped nuke treaty for India benefits.

This is not just an Arms deal but a poitical deal.

Having Said that you nerver know with Indian BABUS they just buy Typhoon or Rafale.

Perhaps i'm streching it bit too much by answering you but you seem to have not read the claims of 300+ mki

if you are getting AESA or nuclear bombs..... fine...good for you, i have no plans to cahllenge it and trust me neither Pakistan govt. have any intentions to protest. It is obvious that those will be used against Bangladesh and Srilanka.

[BATMAN]

Batman.

F22 SU30 F15 RAFALE AND TYPHOON are twin engined for the reasons mentioned above.

F16 is good platform thanks to APG radar and Amraams.

But that means nothing to the poor JF17 pilot who has to fly against 400 su30mki and mmrca

First you decide between 100 and 400 than you will be better able to analyse!

JF-17 has to intercept SU-30 and may be .... mmrca and JF-17 can do this job very well.
Avionics of Thunder will definately improve by the time india owns 400 su-30 and hope you know one of the design consideration of JF-17 was to decouple avionics from main frame.
Avionics can be upgraded in JF-17 as fast as they are available.

[Sapper]

No, sir. Generation figures for aircraft are given based on the generation of engineering or technical development, they are not based on capabilities. Capabilities are not part of the equation, as they can be abstract. Engineering is not.

Therefore, a 4th generation aircraft is not inferior to a 4.5th generation aircraft, it is merely technically older. Superiority in any scenario very much depends on who and what we are talking about. Technically, a 4.5th generation aircraft will include engineering features not included in early 4th generation aircraft. That's it. It will not be a grade of its capabilities (A+, A etc).

Good list, though a few things I disagree with. Early Hornet and early Falcon were very similar in capabilities, and the Falcon has always been a better air-combat fighter. So if the JF-17 is just slightly inferior to the Block 15 F-16, how can it be severely inferior to the early F/A-18s? This and a few other things I don't agree with. But then again, this is your opinion. It can't be judged as right or wrong.

Dear ... i know VERY well what is meant by 4Gen and 4.5Gen, so on and so forth. I was just trying to make a guy understand why we need to CLASSIFY aircraft into generations to quickly access how it is made, how advanced it is, what capablities it carries in its design etc etc ... my using very basic examples was to make him understand a complex concept in baby steps.

As far as F18s are concerned ... my use of "original" should have been F18C/D Hornets ... and "current" should have been Super Hornet ... My mistake

[hj786]

Who asked you about dilemma of PAF?
I hope you know since how many years indians are dreaming to have 126 planes like F-16 or F-18? perhaps since 1990! what makes you think that it will ever materialize?
So please, make all your superficial claims about SU30 and F-18 in respective threads.
Don't expect PAF or JF-17 to be static by 2020

Its funny how he argues the JF-17 is useless because it is "one generation behind", he completely ignores the facts that I have pointed out to him again and again (with sources): it will be armed with missiles just as advanced and backed up by infrastructure just as comprehensive as any fighter opposing it (in PAF service at least), and that's in its most basic configuration. Basically, all he can come up with is "its a 3rd generation fighter so the poor pilots don't stand a chance", meanwhile the reality is even the old USAF legacy fighters mop up the big bad flanker-H in exercises, without a HMS/D system.

[PAFAce]

F18 Super hornets and in deed F15 EAGLES are twin engined Fighters.

They carry bigger radars bigger Arms payload and over longer distances.

They also carry more jammers and can survive a direct hit in some cases having 2 engines.

But single engines means

Cheaper to buy and maintain.
Quicker sortie rates
one pilot
LOWER RCS some times.

Having said this the worlds best ranked fighters are all twin engines.

F22
Typhoon/Rafale
SU35/SU30MKI
F18S/H F15S

I don't want to get into an argument with you. Here are some links you could look at. These are all posts by professionals who would know what they are talking about (excluding me, of course).
F-16 vs F/A-18 hornet
F-16 vs F/A-18 hornet
F-16 vs F/A-18 hornet
F-16 vs F/A-18 hornet

F/A-18 for an Air Force, one with the needs of the PAF or IAF, is an inferior deal to the F-16, be it old or new. A fact my friend Sapper failed to assess before posting the list. It is also quite simplistic to compare platform to platform, one must always have a context. But then again, Sapper's list was expressed as an opinion, not fact, so it can't be judged.

Dear ... i know VERY well what is meant by 4Gen and 4.5Gen, so on and so forth. I was just trying to make a guy understand why we need to CLASSIFY aircraft into generations to quickly access how it is made, how advanced it is, what capablities it carries in its design etc etc ... my using very basic examples was to make him understand a complex concept in baby steps.

Didn't mean any disrespect. You may know about the differences, but you didn't show it well with the grades comparison. That comparison was just too simplistic, to put it politely, so I just thought I'd clear it up. Also, you don't have to break things down into "baby steps" for muse, he's shown the capability to understand quite complex issues far beyond most of our understanding.

Its funny how he argues the JF-17 is useless because it is "one generation behind", he completely ignores the facts that I have pointed out to him again and again (with sources): it will be armed with missiles just as advanced and backed up by infrastructure just as comprehensive as any fighter opposing it (in PAF service at least), and that's in its most basic configuration. Basically, all he can come up with is "its a 3rd generation fighter so the poor pilots don't stand a chance", meanwhile the reality is even the old USAF legacy fighters mop up the big bad flanker-H in exercises, without a HMS/D system.

It's because you can only teach somebody something if they are willing to learn. If he enters debates with a closed mind, unwilling to accept any credible arguments, then all your efforts will be to no avail. Trust me, hj786, I've seen you do your thing here for a while now, and it's rock solid most of the time. So, it's time for you to move up a weight class and engage in more productive discussions.

[PakShaheen79]

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F18 Super hornets and in deed F15 EAGLES are twin engined Fighters.

They carry bigger radars bigger Arms payload and over longer distances.

They also carry more jammers and can survive a direct hit in some cases having 2 engines.

The F16 like the JF17 is single engine and smaller size. Less powerful radars less load and range. LESS chance of surviving a direct hit.

But single engines means

Cheaper to buy and maintain.
Quicker sortie rates
one pilot
LOWER RCS some times.

Having said this the worlds best ranked fighters are all twin engines.

F22
Typhoon/Rafale
SU35/SU30MKI
F18S/H F15S

Still If we checj number of kills by these and F-16 alone. Latter will beat them all single handedly F-15 is another story.