JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Arsalan]

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Hi,

JF 17 is a small plane---chance are that for

A2A role---only 2 bvr's and 4wvr's

A2G---depends how dedicated the attack is---maybe maybe 2 wvr's andrest ground attack----better chances are that no wvr's at all---only ground attack weapons----

naval version---purely dedicated plane---only 2 ashms if it can carry them---otherwise only one ashm---maybe maybe 2 wvr's---and fuel tanks---extra weapons a extra burden---take the focus away from the primary goal and are cumbersome for the plane---.

The incoming missile hits will be taken by the escorts---the escorst will be fully armed, but will lay down their lives in protecting the primary attack plane---for that reason no weapons on the primary attack plane.

sir escort means more planes, more planes mean more money spendings, dont you think that increasing the hardpoints to 9 will solve the problem to great extent. well i agree the A2G planes will be dedicated to the job but with nine hardpoints it may well carry twp BVR two WVR and six bombs on two hardpoints and still have three points vaccant for fuel tanks and targetting pods or a cruise missile if required! ! ! this will make it able to do the job with out great reliance to other planes.
same goes for naval warfare roles, just change the bombs with two or three AShM,, however an important fact that can not be neglected is that will JF be able to carry such sort of payload. this is another question and with a powerfull egine on cards, i cannot find any reason whay it cannot!

regards!

[PakShaheen79]

Everybody is talking about increasing number of hard points on JF-17... Thing is what about having good T/W ration during mission with every kind of configuration. A2A configuration might not be a problem vis-a-vis T/W ration is concerned but what about A2G and Maritime strikes ops... It will need lot of work before we can integrate all required weapons and still able to maintain certain T/W ratio so that Thunder can use its aerodynamics to full potential in air combat particularly in WVR (if requires so)

Meaning before adding more hard points it is critical to put a more powerful engine in thunder.

[DANGER-ZONE]

all we need a power full engine,and every thing will go in jf17 favour.
why not our engeniers test f16s engine on jf17.

[Owais]

all we need a power full engine,and every thing will go in jf17 favour.
why not our engeniers test f16s engine on jf17.

F100 is much bigger than RD93. it cannot be fitted in JF17

[fatman17]

^^^the big corporate thing these days is to "Steal With Pride"!!!

[Arsalan]

Everybody is talking about increasing number of hard points on JF-17... Thing is what about having good T/W ration during mission with every kind of configuration. A2A configuration might not be a problem vis-a-vis T/W ration is concerned but what about A2G and Maritime strikes ops... It will need lot of work before we can integrate all required weapons and still able to maintain certain T/W ratio so that Thunder can use its aerodynamics to full potential in air combat particularly in WVR (if requires so)

Meaning before adding more hard points it is critical to put a more powerful engine in thunder.

well the hardpoints issue will only be considered when JF have got a better engine. its on the cards therefor the topic came under discussion. i agree that there is no point in adding more hardpoints with same engine on board but it is very likely that the engine will be replaced from third block onwards!

regards!

[PakShaheen79]

well the hardpoints issue will only be considered when JF have got a better engine. its on the cards therefor the topic came under discussion. i agree that there is no point in adding more hardpoints with same engine on board but it is very likely that the engine will be replaced from third block onwards!

regards!

So you are suggesting no more hard point before thrid block means not before plane # 101 rolled out. I think lot of things will be taken care in 2nd batch as first one will be going under very rigged testing by PAF pilots. Changes will be slow as first data regarding all the aspects of Thunder will be collected during testing and then will be analyzed by PAC/CAC to made changes as per pilot's requirements.
PAF did opted for 19,100 LBS engine while everyone was believing that it will be older 18,300 LBs RD-93 thing... I would not wounder if PAC can reduce 200-300 KG weight to translate it into couple of hard points for AAMs or may be able to put dual launch rail on one plate form.

Engine is more critical to have more T/W as Thunder is supposed to be a fighter and front line interceptor with limited multi role capabilities to support ground forces.

I don't see a need for substantial increase in weapon load (specially heavy munitions for A2G role, LGBs, H2, H4 etc.) as for these there always will be FC-20 and F-16 available. There is no point in making JF-17 as capable as J-10 and then going for latter.

To me even 7 hard points can do the trick (though i would love having 9) but point is it must be a multi role with greater abilities to take on anything IAF send in air and deny air superiority of IAF over battle field rest can be done with heavier plate forms and missile arsenal.

[MastanKhan]

[QUOTE=arsalanaslam123;495163]sir escort means more planes, more planes mean more money spendings, dont you think that increasing the hardpoints to 9 will solve the problem to great extent. well i agree the A2G planes will be dedicated to the job but with nine hardpoints it may well carry twp BVR two WVR and six bombs on two hardpoints and still have three points vaccant for fuel tanks and targetting pods or a cruise missile if required! ! ! this will make it able to do the job with out great reliance to other planes.
same goes for naval warfare roles, just change the bombs with two or three AShM,, however an important fact that can not be neglected is that will JF be able to carry such sort of payload. this is another question and with a powerfull egine on cards, i cannot find any reason whay it cannot!

Hi AA,

There is no place for extra weapons load on a dedicated strike mission that are not needed---the pilot is only focused on delivering the payload---that is why neither the american planes had any extra missiles on their planes during deep strike missions nor did israeli planes had any missiles---just the pay load---.

Bvr's and wvr's will be confusing to the pilot---what is he going to do---defend his plane or do his job bey delivering the payload---. Some of the deep strike missions have been with only one smart bomb and drop tanks---and the tanks were dropped before the plane went into the hot zone---again the palne didnot have any defensive weapons----.

Tough luck---if the escorts are too far away to protect you.

[Javed3]

With a full internal fuel load, two drop tanks, 2X LGBs, 2XAIM-9s and a mission pod the 7 hard points are occupied and the T/O weight will be kissing around 34,000 lbs; with T/O T/W ratio of less than 0.5 on an average summer day. The profile drag will limit the low level dash to about 500 knots. RD-93 versions have full A/B thrust rating of about 19,000 lbs but the S/L cruise power setting is of the order of 13,000 lbs.

Adding more hard points is not likely to achieve anything; except more draggy pylons.

Sending an F-17 on a strike mission without top level escorts is not a workable idea, except where localized Air Supremacy is achievable. But this is a doubtful specter considering the growing fleet of Indian SU-35's.

On other hand escorts by themselves offer lucrative targets in serious BVR engagement scenario. Successful deployment in a realistic war scenario is up to the innovative mission planning abilities of our Air Force commanders.

[brahmastra]

Sorry if repost

JF-17 Q and A from JF-17 Project manager

Q. Has PAF carried out an assessment of the training-requirements for induction of JF-17 aircraft? How will they be met?

A. So far the PAF has not chalked out any training programme for its pilots on JF-17 aircraft. However, owing to the excellent man- machine interface of JF-17 aircraft, it can be assumed with confidence that the training for flying this aircraft would neither be difficult nor a complex affair. Reports from the Chinese and PAF test pilots in China also confirm the fact that JF-17 is a pilot-friendly and easy aircraft to fly. Since training to fly the JF-17 aircraft would not be time consuming and induction of the aircraft in PAF is still two years away, therefore, it is a little premature to chalk-out the training plan.

Q. How will PAF conduct acceptance of JF-17 aircraft from the manufacturer i.e. what does it involve?

A. PAF will not only be the user but also the manufacturer of JF-17 aircraft. Therefore, manufacturing and production process of JF-17 aircraft would be monitored and controlled by PAF from the very beginning. Since PAF is a quality conscious organisation, therefore, highest standards of quality will be ensured at all tiers of production. Nevertheless, after the completion of manufacturing and assembly processes, elaborate ground and flight tests would still be conducted on all the newly manufactured JF-17 aircraft at PAC Kamra, before they are handed over to the fighter squadrons. For this purpose, a modern computerised ‘flight test centre’ is being established at PAC Kamra.

Such exhaustive ‘quality control’ and ‘quality assurance’ measures would certainly ensure a high quality of the product. Nevertheless, before flying the aircraft to the fighter bases, teams from operational squadrons of the PAF, comprising pilots, engineers, and technicians would also be asked to carry out ‘ground acceptance tests’ on the aircraft when it is handed over to them. Additionally, these pilots would also fly ‘Functional Check Flights’ to re-assure themselves of the satisfactory functioning of all the aircraft systems and sub-systems.

Q. Will JF-17 (or its variant) be used in the naval role.

A. Yes, JF-17 is an all-weather, multi-role combat aircraft, which can be effectively used against almost all types of targets including those at sea. Therefore, the aircraft will be appropriately configured to effectively undertake the maritime operations as well. For this purpose, it is being equipped with a modern radar, which would have good performance against all types of targets even during bad weather, rough sea-states and EW environments. The aircraft is also being equipped with an auto-pilot, accurate navigation system, and other avionics systems, which are installed in any modern aircraft to ensure efficient day / night operations over the sea. In its weapons package, the aircraft is being equipped with modern anti-shipping missiles and anti-radiation missiles, in addition to the general-purpose bombs and LASER guided bombs. These capabilities would certainly make JF-17 aircraft a potent weapon system, which can be effectively used for all type of missions over the sea.

Q. Can your provide some details about JF-17’s avionics and weapon suite?

A. JF-17 aircraft will have a modern avionics architecture, which will be supported by two mission computers, ‘Smart Multi Function Coloured Displays’, ‘Smart Heads Up Display’, ICP and HOTAS arrangement. These features will provide an excellent man-machine-interface to the pilot in a complete glass-cockpit environment. In the avionics layout, mechanical sub-systems of the aircraft will also be interfaced to provide automatic monitoring of almost all the aircraft sub-systems. In case of a malfunction in any of the aircraft sub-systems, the onboard computers will provide fault analysis, warning and guidance to the pilot.

The aircraft will have a modern powerful radar, which will have excellent performance in air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea modes. A ‘tactical data link’ system, which will be integrated with the other air-borne and ground-based sensors, will also be available to provide comprehensive ‘situational awareness’ to the pilot. The aircraft will also be equipped with IRSTS, CLDP, and Helmet Mounted Display to provide all weather operations capability in all types of environments. The navigation system of the aircraft will be based on the Ring LASER gyro which would be coupled with the GPS.

For providing qualitative operational training, the aircraft will also be equipped with ACMI, Solid State Digital Data/ Video Recorder and the DTC, whereas TACAN, ILS etc will also be available for efficient and safe aircraft operations at night and during bad weather conditions. For its self-protection, the aircraft will have an Integrated Counter Measure System, which would automatically operate to ward –off different types of threats by employing CFD and ECM pod. The ICMS will get its update from the RWR, MAWS and other sensors. Two independent high-performance wide-band radios alongwith an independent data link will ensure efficient communication even during intense EW environments. In short, JF-17 aircraft will have a highly modern avionics suite, which will certainly provide the cutting- edge to the aircraft.

Q. Currently, the JF-17 prototypes are equipped with a mix of hydraulic and FBW system. Will the production models retain this unique system or will they be equipped with a complete FBW system?

A. The flight controls of JF-17 aircraft are commanded through six computers and operated by two hydraulic systems. The six ‘flight control computers’ have a lot of redundancy within themselves, therefore, the aircraft would keep flying normally, even if couple of computers fail. This redundancy is a common feature of almost all the fly-by-wire control systems in the world. However, a unique feature of JF-17 aircraft is that it can fly like a conventional aircraft even when all its flight control computers fail. This arrangement is an added safety feature, which provides an additional advantage to the aircraft without any adverse effects. Therefore, it would be retained in the serial production aircraft as well.

Q. When will Pakistan get its first aircraft for evaluation and training?

A. Pakistani test pilots and test-engineers are already involved in the complete flight testing and evaluation phase of JF-17 aircraft in China . Therefore, these tests will not be repeated in Pakistan. The small-batch or the pilot-batch production would start in the middle of 2004 and PAF would get its first aircraft in the second half of the Year-2006.

Q. What is the final number of JF-17s to be procured? Is it still 150 aircraft or has the number been raised due to the failure in procuring the 4th generation fighter?

A. Before answering the question, it would be appropriate to clarify the fact that PAF has not failed in procuring the hi-tech aircraft. As a matter of fact, PAF is only keeping its options open for the time being, for procurement of such an aircraft. As far as the JF-17 is concerned, the number and induction schedule of this aircraft in PAF would be regulated according to the operational requirements of the service. Therefore, there is a lot of flexibility in the induction schedule and the total number of aircraft, which would be acquired by the PAF over the years. In the same context, it would be appropriate to mention that JF-17’s manufacturing facilities will have enough capacity to meet the domestic as well as foreign customer’s demands, simultaneously. Hence, lack of production capacity would never become a factor in the induction of a required number of JF-17 aircraft in the PAF.

Q. When will the dual-seat JF-17 aircraft be produced and what will be the ratio of these aircraft in PAF’s JF-17 fleet vis-à-vis single-seat aircraft?

A. Presently, the Project is concentrating on timely serial production of single seat JF-17 aircraft. Since an urgent requirement for production of a dual-seat model does not exist, therefore, the schedule for serial production of dual-seat aircraft has not been determined as yet. For the same reason, the ratio of dual-seat aircraft versus single-seat aircraft in PAF’s JF-17 fleet has also not been finalised as yet.

Q. Will the first batch of JF-17s be equipped with an in-flight refuelling system? Will in-flight refuelling be based on a buddy refuelling system or will a tanker fleet be actually required?

A. The serial production of JF-17 aircraft will have the air-to-air refuelling capability, but the initial batch of these aircraft will not have the air-to-air refuelling kit installed on them. Nevertheless, basic design of all the JF-17 aircraft fulfils all the essential requirements for providing air-to-air refuelling capability. Therefore, by simple modification of an air-to-air refuelling kit, the first batch of aircraft will also be modified for the air-to-air refuelling capability.

Buddy refuelling is a good option, but in many tactical situations, the need for a tanker aircraft cannot be ignored. Therefore, acquisition of tanker aircraft is a natural requirement for any Air Force, which desires to have the air-to-air refuelling capability on its fighter fleet.

[DANGER-ZONE]

Q. Currently, the JF-17 prototypes are equipped with a mix of hydraulic and FBW system. Will the production models retain this unique system or will they be equipped with a complete FBW system?

A. The flight controls of JF-17 aircraft are commanded through six computers and operated by two hydraulic systems. The six ‘flight control computers’ have a lot of redundancy within themselves, therefore, the aircraft would keep flying normally, even if couple of computers fail. This redundancy is a common feature of almost all the fly-by-wire control systems in the world. However, a unique feature of JF-17 aircraft is that it can fly like a conventional aircraft even when all its flight control computers fail. This arrangement is an added safety feature, which provides an additional advantage to the aircraft without any adverse effects. Therefore, it would be retained in the serial production aircraft as well.

that sounds good,it really is like that?

[abbasniazi]

It seems to be an old interview, still provides good coverage of the concept and role of the fighter in PAF, good work brahmastra...

[k7x]

Sorry if repost

Q. Currently, the JF-17 prototypes are equipped with a mix of hydraulic and FBW system. Will the production models retain this unique system or will they be equipped with a complete FBW system?

A. The flight controls of JF-17 aircraft are commanded through six computers and operated by two hydraulic systems. The six ‘flight control computers’ have a lot of redundancy within themselves, therefore, the aircraft would keep flying normally, even if couple of computers fail. This redundancy is a common feature of almost all the fly-by-wire control systems in the world. However, a unique feature of JF-17 aircraft is that it can fly like a conventional aircraft even when all its flight control computers fail. This arrangement is an added safety feature, which provides an additional advantage to the aircraft without any adverse effects. Therefore, it would be retained in the serial production aircraft as well.

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and so JF17 is not an aerodynamically unstable like J10, F16 or m2k, this explains itst simplicity and less complecated design...

[Arsalan]

So you are suggesting no more hard point before thrid block means not before plane # 101 rolled out. I think lot of things will be taken care in 2nd batch as first one will be going under very rigged testing by PAF pilots. Changes will be slow as first data regarding all the aspects of Thunder will be collected during testing and then will be analyzed by PAC/CAC to made changes as per pilot's requirements.
PAF did opted for 19,100 LBS engine while everyone was believing that it will be older 18,300 LBs RD-93 thing... I would not wounder if PAC can reduce 200-300 KG weight to translate it into couple of hard points for AAMs or may be able to put dual launch rail on one plate form.

Engine is more critical to have more T/W as Thunder is supposed to be a fighter and front line interceptor with limited multi role capabilities to support ground forces.

I don't see a need for substantial increase in weapon load (specially heavy munitions for A2G role, LGBs, H2, H4 etc.) as for these there always will be FC-20 and F-16 available. There is no point in making JF-17 as capable as J-10 and then going for latter.

To me even 7 hard points can do the trick (though i would love having 9) but point is it must be a multi role with greater abilities to take on anything IAF send in air and deny air superiority of IAF over battle field rest can be done with heavier plate forms and missile arsenal.

well i dont think it will be comming in block II as for the ttime being PAF is going for rapid production may not be willing to spend any time on upgradesif the project keep on going on this pace we may well see the JF entring block II by the end of 2010 to mid 2011, this is for sure. now this means only about 15 months to carry out upgrades, evaluate them, remove any faults and enter the production without any delay between the blocks and this seem very unlikely to happen. for this reason i proposed major upgrades wil be carried on in blk III onwards!!
as far as number of 7 hardpoints is concerned it is only be considered enough if we have sever short commings in financila issues, otherwise if we take a look at technical side, 9 hardpoints are a must!!
you can not relay on less then 100 FC20+F16 to do each and every thing for you, JF have to share the burden!!

regards!

[Storm Force]

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Can somebody explain the

1. Difference between Block 1 and block 2 JF17

2. PAF have ordered 42 Thunders from china recently are these all block 1.

3. What is the expected delivery time bearing IOC or FOC has offically not happened yet.