PAF Seeks buyers for its JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter Jet.

[trident2010]

---

---

I think it is bit pre-mature to push for the sale of JF-17. The production of JF-17 is already crippled by blocking of engines by russia. Until China comes up with tested, working engine and PAF accepts it as a RD-93 replacement, they cannot throttle up the sales pitch. However, doing displays/sorties in airshows, it will surely get some attention and potential buyers would consider it when looking for new options. Atleast 4-5 years of wait for 1st export.

[araz]

But these upgrades would surely outweigh the low cost benefit? And I would find it highly unlikely that JF-17 would be sold with American or European armaments and block their sales that easily. I don't know how easy it would be to sell a Pakistani/Chinese platform with American/European upgraded weapons and avionics to a cash conscious air force.

Price difference is always comparative to other platforms.You have excluded the factor of chinese development .this will make a difference

[salman108]

Originally Posted by Reaper What You Sow View Post
But these upgrades would surely outweigh the low cost benefit? And I would find it highly unlikely that JF-17 would be sold with American or European armaments and block their sales that easily. I don't know how easy it would be to sell a Pakistani/Chinese platform with American/European upgraded weapons and avionics to a cash conscious air force.

Price difference is always comparative to other platforms.You have excluded the factor of chinese development .this will make a difference

The way to look at it will be:
western companies are privately held companies; which are listed on the exchange and have a board of directors and thus the stock value to worry about.

the fact that this development work is done by private sector, and all the sub contracting model based integration makes the end product more expensive than it is actually worth.

On top of that we have to add the overhead costs of bribes, the private jets, corporate hoohaa, mitigations and legal departments, congress elections and so on and so forth.

Usually the overhead costs come out to be 80 % of the product cost.

when Lockheed sells us and F-16, it counts profit margins on TOP of all the other costs.

Thus the very strength of the western air craft manufacturers i.e strong private sector partnership actually ends up hurting them in the cost columns.

With China and Pakistan this is not the case; PAC and Chendgu are state run organizations and are working not for a fat profit for board of directors;
but for respective nations.

[salman108]

I think it is bit pre-mature to push for the sale of JF-17. The production of JF-17 is already crippled by blocking of engines by russia. Until China comes up with tested, working engine and PAF accepts it as a RD-93 replacement, they cannot throttle up the sales pitch. However, doing displays/sorties in airshows, it will surely get some attention and potential buyers would consider it when looking for new options. Atleast 4-5 years of wait for 1st export.

Would you please qualify the word CRIPPLED as you suggested above?

[MastanKhan]

A few things need to be cleared.Thunder has no equivalent in the russian inventory.So who/what are we competing with? Russians typically produce twin engined beasts which are not what the thunder is , a small single engined mid spec 4th gen fighter for countries with limited finances,Twin engined fighters become so expensive that not many countries will go for them
Secondly the issue of the engine has been advertised in the press.However, WS13 is a couple of yrs away from mass production. If you take that into account, and add the info from my last post on the matter, the decision and the logic behind it starts to make sense. The engine issue will not reckon into it at all.
The last point I want to make is that for the next half /decadeChina is not going to market F10 to very many countries. Pakistan may be the only exception. Again that decision depends on the availability of WS10, which is nearing completion. With the engine issue resolved China would be free of the Russian influence once and for all.
Araz

Hi,

You are right----the J 10 would possibly be restricted to china and pakistan---as you mentioned for at least another 5 + years.

Now coming to the single and dual engine issue---it depends on the marketing and sales dept of each individual country and what kind of package they can offer.

Nations may want to buy aircraft for show and force projection----they want to make a statement to their neighbours---. It will be really really interesting to see where the Jf 17 is headed in 2 years time period and the J 10 in 5 years.

[Dil Pakistan]

I think it is bit pre-mature to push for the sale of JF-17. The production of JF-17 is already crippled by blocking of engines by russia. Until China comes up with tested, working engine and PAF accepts it as a RD-93 replacement, they cannot throttle up the sales pitch. However, doing displays/sorties in airshows, it will surely get some attention and potential buyers would consider it when looking for new options. Atleast 4-5 years of wait for 1st export.

I would argue against this. I think earlier we look for the market for JF-17, better it is for many reasons:

1. We will be able to fill the gap in the international market that exists at the moment (i.e. a good, effective and Cheap fighter jet - not many are around at the moment).

2. If JF-17 is used by many countries at the same time then it will help its evolution and frame maturity. The data collected from different parts of the world (different pilots, different weathers etc) will be very useful for PAF and PLAAF.

3. PAF can raise cash and can buy expensive equipment from international market (radars, engines, armaments etc) and in this way future batches of JF-17 can be improved quickly.

With regard to the issue of RD-93 supply from Russia, it is now confirmed by a Chinese official attending Farnborough Air Show that no official statement has come from Russia and everything is proceeding as planned.

[Nahraf]

With regard to the issue of RD-93 supply from Russia, it is now confirmed by a Chinese official attending Farnborough Air Show that no official statement has come from Russia and everything is proceeding as planned.

Russians seems to play games. Few years ago they also refused RD-93 but later Putin himself attended the signing of the agreement. The joke is actually on Indians since they seem to give them some comfort but when crunch time comes they follow the agreements already signed with China. So I think this time too at the last minute Russia will honor the agreements on reexport of RD-93.

[Dil Pakistan]

Russians seems to play games. Few years ago they also refused RD-93 but later Putin himself attended the signing of the agreement. The joke is actually on Indians since they seem to give them some comfort but when crunch time comes they follow the agreements already signed with China. So I think this time too at the last minute Russia will honor the agreements on reexport of RD-93.

I would see it in even wider concept. Russia does not want to be out of MRCA race (just like French have put the deal on hold for JF-17 avionics). If Russia does not get MIG-35 in MRCA then they will not worry about stopping RD-93.

Also, it is mentioned that Russia has already supplied about 200 RD-93 to China. That means for the next 4 years or so no more engines are required (JF-17 production is maximum 25 planes per year). In these 4 years WS-13 will be ready.

[mikkix]

You look hard enough, you can find a buyer for virtually anything.. And JF17 is a damn fine plane.. So finding a buyer there shouldnt be a problem. But I believe, Pakistan for next 5 years will focus on increasing its own numbers instead of exporting it. Just like China is doing with J 10

i dont think so cause pakistan wants to sell thunder and with that money they wants to purchase new 4.5 or 5th gen Aircraft..

[blain2]

From our standpoint, Russians are no more reliable than the Western suppliers. Pakistan and China need to work post-haste on the replacement to the RD-93. Chinese engine technology may be in its infancy but when half the world is flying older Chinese aircraft with even more rudimentary engines without significant problems, PAF and others can make do with Chinese engines even if the performance is slightly lacking. I'd rather have spare engines and no threat of disruption of supply, than have Russian engines which are prone to problems with supply.

[Mark Sien]

From our standpoint, Russians are no more reliable than the Western suppliers. Pakistan and China need to work post-haste on the replacement to the RD-93. Chinese engine technology may be in its infancy but when half the world is flying older Chinese aircraft with even more rudimentary engines without significant problems, PAF and others can make do with Chinese engines even if the performance is slightly lacking. I'd rather have spare engines and no threat of disruption of supply, than have Russian engines which are prone to problems with supply.

From my understanding (may be wrong), the new Chinese engines (WS-13, WS-12, etc) are designed to boast higher performance and better reliability than the current RD-93. So either way, an engine change in JF-17 should only improve its performance; perhaps not optimally as with another Western or Russian engine, but well within what PAF requires from Thunder.

[FreekiN]

What's Pakistan's cut of the profit? I assume from the title of the thread that Pakistan will get a lil 'somethin somethin' from the sales. Can't seem to find that anywhere.

[DESERT FIGHTER]

What's Pakistan's cut of the profit? I assume from the title of the thread that Pakistan will get a lil 'somethin somethin' from the sales. Can't seem to find that anywhere.

Try 50% of the PROFIT....... It was a JV man.

[pshamim]

I am sure RD-93 will be ultimately replaced. If you compare the new pictures of incoming JF-17s 113 % 114 with the older ones, you may notice a bulge in the belly just under the exchausr cone. Changes have definitely been made. Notice the intake looks smaller than before.

Hopefully some one will post what they see and validate my vision.

[razgriz19]

---

---

"This year, the MiG-29 is competing against the JF-17/FC-1 for an Egyptian tender of 32 fighters. The FSMTC has already approved the re-export of RD-93 engines if China wins the Egyptian tender."

Farnborough 2010 - Defense News Show Scout – Russia Fears Competition From Chinese Fighter Jets