JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

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It depends on the missile doesnt it? for deep strikes PAF would probably use F-16s or FC-20? as for hardpoint... im sure multiple eject ejector racks can do the job? With a high thrush engine like WS-13 and an AESA or AWAC support... id say it would become a world class fighter... also we cant just sacrifice an entire programe just coz india bought some goodies? wouldnt tht crush our aviation industry?....... its not like we are going to war with india tmrw? let the platform evolve and mature... instead of belittling it shall we?



Not excuses im being honest.. why buy a sanction prone jet instead of evolving our own?

Sir,

What FC20 are you talking about---they are about 2---3 years away from induction----oh I am sorry---I understand----you have already counted the chicken even before the have been hatched----.

It depends on the missile doesnt it? for deep strikes PAF would probably use F-16s or FC-20? as for hardpoint... im sure multiple eject ejector racks can do the job? With a high thrush engine like WS-13 and an AESA or AWAC support... id say it would become a world class fighter... also we cant just sacrifice an entire programe just coz india bought some goodies? wouldnt tht crush our aviation industry?....... its not like we are going to war with india tmrw? let the platform evolve and mature... instead of belittling it shall we?



Not excuses im being honest.. why buy a sanction prone jet instead of evolving our own?

Sir,

How about considering moving to a different world as well----maybe find a different planet as well---because these sanctions are seemingly going to happen.

[Donatello]

It depends on the missile doesnt it? for deep strikes PAF would probably use F-16s or FC-20? as for hardpoint... im sure multiple eject ejector racks can do the job? With a high thrush engine like WS-13 and an AESA or AWAC support... id say it would become a world class fighter... also we cant just sacrifice an entire programe just coz india bought some goodies? wouldnt tht crush our aviation industry?....... its not like we are going to war with india tmrw? let the platform evolve and mature... instead of belittling it shall we?



Not excuses im being honest.. why buy a sanction prone jet instead of evolving our own?

Let me make one thing clear:

I am an ardent follower and supporter of JF-17 program.

However, aren't we betting too much on what we DO NOT have? FC-20 looks promising, but is still years away. Right now the debate is about what we have and what our enemies have.

Typical case for '....a bird in hand is better than two in the bush...'

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Sir,

What FC20 are you talking about---they are about 2---3 years away from induction----oh I am sorry---I understand----you have already counted the chicken even before the have been hatched----.

Arent u also counting unhatched MRCA of india? i.e rafale etc?

Sir,

How about considering moving to a different world as well----maybe find a different planet as well---because these sanctions are seemingly going to happen.

Perhaps we should invade planet of the apes steal their tech and develop a new badarse fighter with it? would save us swet and R&D?

Let me make one thing clear:

I am an ardent follower and supporter of JF-17 program.

However, aren't we betting too much on what we DO NOT have? FC-20 looks promising, but is still years away. Right now the debate is about what we have and what our enemies have.

Typical case for '....a bird in hand is better than two in the bush...'

Better to have a working jet instead of a show piece grounded during an actual war.

[TAC]

Hi,

Thank you again---pakistan fckued up so bad after 9/11-----it was totally clueless---. Banks were over flowing with dollars at that time---govt had so much cash---it did not know what to do----.

Pakistani millitary machine still has not understood how to counter indian mindset---they have been absolutely clueless---. The heirarchy are arrogant and in their arrogance---they have failed the nation again and again---.

2 to 3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years after 9/11---keeping a pro-active approach and eye on terrorist organization against spoiling peace deal with india---killing OBL at Tora Bora---today we would have been a different pakistan.

Most of your posts are ill informed and almost complete rubbish -- 2/3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years of 9/11???? Do you know how many years after 9/11 the US even agreed to supply less capable F-16's??? Banks were overflowing with dollers???? When exactly was that? Care to post any articles to back up your claim that at any point since 9/11 Pakistan had so much cash that it didn't know what to do with it??

Many of your other posts have been equaly stupid. Please do not assume that anyone is thick enough to buy this rubbish just because nobody can be bothered to respond to each such post.

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Most of your posts are ill informed and almost complete rubbish -- 2/3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years of 9/11???? Do you know how many years after 9/11 the US even agreed to supply less capable F-16's??? Banks were overflowing with dollers???? When exactly was that? Care to post any articles to back up your claim that at any point since 9/11 Pakistan had so much cash that it didn't know what to do with it??

Many of your other posts have been equaly stupid. Please do not assume that anyone is thick enough to buy this rubbish just because nobody can be bothered to respond to each such post.

Be a lil respectful my frnd.. u can present ur point of view with politeness also... consider Mastaan Sahab is a senior member u should behave accordingly and express urself without being rude.
Thanks.
And this is your 2nd post since 2007?

[ANG]

The guy has been spreading rumors about China and Pakistan for so many years in this forum. So why should people respect him?!

Dear All, kindly please remember this is a forum, where ideas are debated. Let's be civil to each other...

[Pfpilot]

Common guys, the point, both, Mr. MastanKhan and Mr. Donatello are making is a legitimate issue. No one is saying the jf-17 is a bad aircraft; no one is even making the claim that it is not a good fighter. The problem arises in our strength relative to our main adversary. Our military developments are due to and in reply to the Indian threat. Accepting this reality, the jf-17 does indeed fall short in comparison to the IAF.

It offers great bang for buck, but what it does not offer is the technological leap forward that is necessary to plug the expanding gap between the PAF and IAF. The debate on "present capability vs. future capability", is where everyone disagrees. Had we procured a foreign platform, when we had the chance, we would have had a far more capable force today. In going ahead with the domestic development of a fighter, the PAF accepted the idea that while the current ability to counter the Indian threat is limited, a domestic fighter will provide great dividends in the future.

I have felt that was the wrong route, foremost because as a nation with a total military budget in the 5 billion dollar range, we did not have the local expertise, funding, or domestic demand that would allow for the growth of a local aviation industry over the long term. We may succeed in making the jf-17, but where do you go from here? We literally need help in paying for the aircraft we helped develop. Were the economy booming, such lofty ideas would make sense and could take off and be successful. For the PAF, we sacrificed the capabilities of today for the promise of tomorrow...problem is: the IAF didn't just sleep over the last decade and has increased its capabilities manifold. Many of us look at the past decade and see no real loss in not having a superior fighter, but that is mere hindsight...had a conflict taken place, the PAF would have been decimated. If hindsight is the only way we can feel good about our planning, there are major issues that need taking care of.

Again, I will add, I consider myself a huge jf-17 fan. Without a doubt, it is one of the proudest achievements we, as a nation, have accomplished...but the fact remains, it falls short of the lofty standards the IAF is setting. In the end, that is all that matters. Whether a plane is Pakistani or French, the one that survives wins...not the one that is most indigenous, unfortunately.

[MastanKhan]

Most of your posts are ill informed and almost complete rubbish -- 2/3 sqdrn's of F18's or Rafales within 2 years of 9/11???? Do you know how many years after 9/11 the US even agreed to supply less capable F-16's??? Banks were overflowing with dollers???? When exactly was that? Care to post any articles to back up your claim that at any point since 9/11 Pakistan had so much cash that it didn't know what to do with it??

Many of your other posts have been equaly stupid. Please do not assume that anyone is thick enough to buy this rubbish just because nobody can be bothered to respond to each such post.

Hi,

Welcome aboard---I hope you enjoy this place---. Do I need to post any articles---my good man---as a lot of pakistanis got deported and most of the pakistanis were scared and unsecure in the u s----they sent their cash back home----a lot of them migrated as well---is this a secret---.
Before 9/11 pakistan was broke---penniless---within a couple of years after that---they had quite a few billions---. The statement that I made about banks overflowing with cash---there was no secret to it---.

Collin Powell---left George Bush in 2005---in 2003-04 a reporter asked him what is the issue of giving weapons to pakistan---he said on tv---there are no issues----whatever they want we give them---we get it approved thru congress---then they come back---they have changed their minds and ask for something else---then we have to go back to congress again----that takes time. There are no issues in selling equipment to pakistan. That is the crux of the statement on tv camera by Collin Powell----.

Paks screwed up with the u s---they had no clue how to deal with them---most of you guys on this board don't even have the ballz to talk to white guys one on one in your every day lives----and you are the educated ones---how do you think the illeterate politicians talk to them---how do you think the millitary personale talk to them.

These screw ups of pakistan not getting what they wanted are their own---the air force was so entrenched with the F16---they could not see anything else---. The rafale was ready for them in 2003----they could have taken it---the french would have been obligated and would have helped out.

You know to have gotten 3 sqdrn's of F18's----pak did not have any clue how to use the u s media and u s tv to its advantage---. They should have told the u s after agreeing to give them bases---we can't do it unless you give us something in return---we need aircraft to keep our people quiet---and they should have leaked this item to the tv media and let it play on the amerrican tv's.

But you people chickened out---americans would have loved to make a deal with pakistan---they are openly saying now that we are surprised pakistan did not demand anything from us----.

You guys are not very intelligent people---you are extremely sharp when it comes to your own property and personal issues---but when it comes to the national level----you keep going around in circles----.

[The Great One]

Hi,

Welcome aboard---I hope you enjoy this place---. Do I need to post any articles---my good man---as a lot of pakistanis got deported and most of the pakistanis were scared and unsecure in the u s----they sent their cash back home----a lot of them migrated as well---is this a secret---.
Before 9/11 pakistan was broke---penniless---within a couple of years after that---they had quite a few billions---. The statement that I made about banks overflowing with cash---there was no secret to it---.

Collin Powell---left George Bush in 2005---in 2003-04 a reporter asked him what is the issue of giving weapons to pakistan---he said on tv---there are no issues----whatever they want we give them---we get it approved thru congress---then they come back---they have changed their minds and ask for something else---then we have to go back to congress again----that takes time. There are no issues in selling equipment to pakistan. That is the crux of the statement on tv camera by Collin Powell----.

Paks screwed up with the u s---they had no clue how to deal with them---most of you guys on this board don't even have the ballz to talk to white guys one on one in your every day lives----and you are the educated ones---how do you think the illeterate politicians talk to them---how do you think the millitary personale talk to them.

These screw ups of pakistan not getting what they wanted are their own---the air force was so entrenched with the F16---they could not see anything else---. The rafale was ready for them in 2003----they could have taken it---the french would have been obligated and would have helped out.

You know to have gotten 3 sqdrn's of F18's----pak did not have any clue how to use the u s media and u s tv to its advantage---. They should have told the u s after agreeing to give them bases---we can't do it unless you give us something in return---we need aircraft to keep our people quiet---and they should have leaked this item to the tv media and let it play on the amerrican tv's.

But you people chickened out---americans would have loved to make a deal with pakistan---they are openly saying now that we are surprised pakistan did not demand anything from us----.

You guys are not very intelligent people---you are extremely sharp when it comes to your own property and personal issues---but when it comes to the national level----you keep going around in circles----.

Rafales for Pakistan???
Are you sure. It is highly doubtable if Pakistan's small little economy can afford F-16's and you want Rafales that too only 1 or 2 sqdn. Things don't work that way in real life. An airforce like the Pakistan doesn't just go on buying only a sqdn. or 2 of some aircraft. Also, not only the cost of Rafale but also it's maintanence, weapons package, spares are way beyond your budget.
F-18's would have been a better choice but Uncle wouldn't have paid for it.

[Beast]

Hi,

Wallah---my indian brethren are getting in the same line as my pakistani brethren----. It was not the cost that was the determing factor----it was the quality behind the name----cost was an illusion.

Seems like you don't have children---otherwise you would know what kind of junk medicine, children's powder milk tainted with vehicle anti freeze, children products tainted with lead come out of china.

Have you even owned a saab or a volvo---if not---you would not know and understand their quality---and the engineering behind their design. Pakistan had access to every aircraft after 9/11 except for su30 / mig 29 F 35 F22.

It is not a matter of being good or bad for the JF17----it is a matter of another 10 years being lost by paf---and what do they have---nothing better.

With the chinese product---you are the GUINEA PIG---. Now as you have spent so much time, energy and resource on this product, you are partial to hear any objections against it---so much of your pride and ego is mounted on its success---that just to save your faces---you will not admit to any flaws and shortcomings in the system----you would rather destroy the country---than betray your ego and face the shame.

If americans are fishing pakistan, then pakistan can fish america as well---but they need to do a better job than what they are doing. When the pakistanis learn to do it with a " smile " on their faces, they will find out that they can manipulate the situation to their advantage a lot more than they did before.

It was not the 'costly' medicine---but the standard of quality of medicine in every vial that is the HALLMARK of swedish technology---when you pay for something swedish---you can buy it with your eyes closed with just the simple trust that the product will out perform what it promised---.

First time weapons systems or any machinery has a lots of growing pains---you don't want to bet your future on it.

LOL.. You are trying to compare diary product with a high tech aeronautical industries as a benchmark?? LOL.. And you are picking on a few particular cases to propel yr agenda. They are plenty of quality product from China which you choose to ignore. China space rocket has not a single mishap of rocket blow up in the sky in last 15 years and the recent docking of space lab is an testiment of the precise and quality of Chinese high tech product. You need very precise calculation and quick real time date footage to achieve a perfect docking few 10000 over miles away from earth.

Seriously, in USA. The media is nothing but smearing the reputation of China. You can see the American keeps barking about inferior product of CHina but when you looks at data. USA is nothing but keeps importing more stuff from China. Walmart is still 90% depend on import of CHina products. Now are we going to listen to a pakistanis living in US, poison by them for its comment? If the China product are so inferior and unsafe why still importing in large numbers? This double headed snake thing is always champion by the american to show their hypocrisy...

I seriously urge all loyal pakistanis in this forum to ignore yr comment. As I say one blind will to more blind. I smell you are starting a smearing campaign.

With Pakistan economic in a not so good stage, the last thing this traitor or blinds want to do is to take away the credit of your military advantage /advancement which is sometime any Pakistanis can still be proud of.

[ziaulislam]

nope it isnt a valid point why?

because had we brought 10 fighters they would have brought 30 fighters..thats how its work..we bought 50 f-16s they brought 60 mirages and 60 mig 29..

they didnt brought anything because we were not buying anything!!!!!!!!

i am surprised by such a low standard logic...!!

india has always had access to French and Russian military equipment as well as Israeli equipment.

and there economy has always larger from us meaning they could have afforded it always

however had we continued good polices of 80s or econmy grown from the 60s revolution it could have been different story...

[PakShaheen79]

Common guys, the point, both, Mr. MastanKhan and Mr. Donatello are making is a legitimate issue. No one is saying the jf-17 is a bad aircraft; no one is even making the claim that it is not a good fighter. The problem arises in our strength relative to our main adversary. Our military developments are due to and in reply to the Indian threat. Accepting this reality, the jf-17 does indeed fall short in comparison to the IAF.

It offers great bang for buck, but what it does not offer is the technological leap forward that is necessary to plug the expanding gap between the PAF and IAF. The debate on "present capability vs. future capability", is where everyone disagrees. Had we procured a foreign platform, when we had the chance, we would have had a far more capable force today. In going ahead with the domestic development of a fighter, the PAF accepted the idea that while the current ability to counter the Indian threat is limited, a domestic fighter will provide great dividends in the future.

I have felt that was the wrong route, foremost because as a nation with a total military budget in the 5 billion dollar range, we did not have the local expertise, funding, or domestic demand that would allow for the growth of a local aviation industry over the long term. We may succeed in making the jf-17, but where do you go from here? We literally need help in paying for the aircraft we helped develop. Were the economy booming, such lofty ideas would make sense and could take off and be successful. For the PAF, we sacrificed the capabilities of today for the promise of tomorrow...problem is: the IAF didn't just sleep over the last decade and has increased its capabilities manifold. Many of us look at the past decade and see no real loss in not having a superior fighter, but that is mere hindsight...had a conflict taken place, the PAF would have been decimated. If hindsight is the only way we can feel good about our planning, there are major issues that need taking care of.

Again, I will add, I consider myself a huge jf-17 fan. Without a doubt, it is one of the proudest achievements we, as a nation, have accomplished...but the fact remains, it falls short of the lofty standards the IAF is setting. In the end, that is all that matters. Whether a plane is Pakistani or French, the one that survives wins...not the one that is most indigenous, unfortunately.

Two points sir,

1. YES.. PAF did close the technical gap viz-a-viz IAF during the last decade. BVR, IFR, AWACS, New SAM system, Block 52s etc... in 90's we were simply no where near this.

2. PAF did got it dead right when they accepted the idea that while the current ability to counter the Indian threat is limited and a domestic fighter will provide a greater dividends in the future... reason ... Because it is not a static project and would evolve over the time as all the legendary fighters did in the past. Just be patient... being on the various forums i remember the times when our Indians friends (read foes) were used to make fun of this project and capabilities of Chinese aviation industry before 2003 and then they received their shut up call so loudly that within four years they were planning MMRCA thing. I sometimes wounder why people make conclusions on assumptions. We did made a blunder by not buying Mirage-2000 in 1990s and that's it.. I just cannot agree that previous decade was a lost one as far as PAF is concerned as it was during this decade when PAF got all that capabilities (which it didn't have previously) which i mentioned in point 1. ... I agree that IAF did increased numbers of their high tech squadrons and that is real issue but it has nothing to do with PAF ... It has everything to do with Pakistan's economy and imbalanced foreign policy over the last six decades which has turned this country into a client of US. Once economy got better , numbers will be no issue... Rest assure, US or India wouldn't attack us as they are winning without fighting due to dozens of other reasons and tactics.

[ababeel22]

i think jf17 was the best that Pakistan could have done with all that was going on and they did it. Jf17 is not just a jet its a symbolic of what paf has achieved. I think paf has done a lot better with its limited budget than any other air force could've done. I personally believe Paf is the most disciplined air force in Asia. Paf has efficient enough think tank to catch up when things get a lil better.in the mean time all paf needs to do is that not let the gap become too wide and thats what paf is doing very efficiently.

[Areesh]

Aren't you missing many important points here? In 2001 Pakistan and India were under US sanctions which was the cause why additional F16s couldn't been bought afaik. Also Rafale was just in induction in a similar premature stage as JF 17 now, while EF was not availble back then even in their own forces.
JF 17s main advantage is, that it is sanction prove and offers your own industry bigger advantages that the simple assembly or limited licence production of foreign fighters.
Besides that, the best decision PAF made was not any fighter procurement, but the addition of strategic aircrafts like tankers and more importantly AWACS. These addition in times where IAF suffers from delays in modernisation and indigenous developments + the increasing threat from China, PAF has changed the game by far. You just need to compare PAF and IAF in 1999 and today and you will see that PAF has dramatically catched up in capability, while IAF has made only small steps forward and is splitting their forces today way more than earlier. The faster pace of JF 17 replacing older single role fighters, compared to LCA is also a big advantage, even though it is only at the low end. PAF will always have the inferior aircrafts when you compare them 1 on 1, but as an airforce they have made good progress!

This.... This post of Sancho has said it all and answered all the wishful criticism of buying dozens of Rafale, EFT and F-16's.

[TAC]

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Hi,

Welcome aboard---I hope you enjoy this place---. Do I need to post any articles---my good man---as a lot of pakistanis got deported and most of the pakistanis were scared and unsecure in the u s----they sent their cash back home----a lot of them migrated as well---is this a secret---.
Before 9/11 pakistan was broke---penniless---within a couple of years after that---they had quite a few billions---. The statement that I made about banks overflowing with cash---there was no secret to it---.

Collin Powell---left George Bush in 2005---in 2003-04 a reporter asked him what is the issue of giving weapons to pakistan---he said on tv---there are no issues----whatever they want we give them---we get it approved thru congress---then they come back---they have changed their minds and ask for something else---then we have to go back to congress again----that takes time. There are no issues in selling equipment to pakistan. That is the crux of the statement on tv camera by Collin Powell----.

Paks screwed up with the u s---they had no clue how to deal with them---most of you guys on this board don't even have the ballz to talk to white guys one on one in your every day lives----and you are the educated ones---how do you think the illeterate politicians talk to them---how do you think the millitary personale talk to them.

These screw ups of pakistan not getting what they wanted are their own---the air force was so entrenched with the F16---they could not see anything else---. The rafale was ready for them in 2003----they could have taken it---the french would have been obligated and would have helped out.

You know to have gotten 3 sqdrn's of F18's----pak did not have any clue how to use the u s media and u s tv to its advantage---. They should have told the u s after agreeing to give them bases---we can't do it unless you give us something in return---we need aircraft to keep our people quiet---and they should have leaked this item to the tv media and let it play on the amerrican tv's.

But you people chickened out---americans would have loved to make a deal with pakistan---they are openly saying now that we are surprised pakistan did not demand anything from us----.

You guys are not very intelligent people---you are extremely sharp when it comes to your own property and personal issues---but when it comes to the national level----you keep going around in circles----.

Yet another post based entirely on your personal skewed thinking without any grounding in reality.
Once again I ask you -- what source can you provide that at any time since 9/11 Pakistan had more cash than it knew what to do with. You say this is 'no secret' so there must be thousands of sources to confirm this ludicrous view of yours????
Pakistan asked for additional F-16's almost imediately after 9/11. It was not until years later that the US finaly agreed to sell them - this is fact and you in your parallel - make believe world - are saying that they screwed up by not snapping up 3 sqadrons of F-18's or Rafales?? Aircraft that they could not afford and had no infrastructure of support??? Please join the rest of us in the real world.
Slinging shallow and dumb abuse at Pakistanis like they dare not talk to white folk does not somehow substantiate your views which remain devoid of reality. Perhaps your offensive statements like lack of intelligence are true for you but not the case for Pakistanis as a whole.