Kashmir: News & Discussions

[KS]

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What's stopping India? India clearly feels they have much, much more to lose. Indian Armed presence is off the charts when compared to the Pakistani Armed presence in Kashmir. Also, the aspirations for an indepedent state have to be acknowledged too. What's stopping India in conducting a plebliscite in its unstable part of Kashmir with all aspirations, to end the resistance to India there and strengthen its territorial claims on Kashmir?

Err...You dont make sense...especially in the context of his reply.

He clearly said if Pakistan is so confident about the outcome/aspirations of the Kashmiris and truly wants them to have their 'Right to Self-determination' ,let it first do a plebiscite in its part of Kashmir and then exhort India (which would be forced to do the same if Pakistan does it).

Unknowingly you have also substantiated his point ---- Its always the country that thinks it would win which conducts the referendum/plebiscite first, not the country which feels in the opposite way.

Also, Pakistan did start to withdraw troops I believe, in the 50's. But India didn't. India has also promised a plebliscite since the end of the First Kashmir War.

Your belief is wrong.Period.

[SpArK]

Good diplomacy from Norway.. Already Russia and six other countries including "china" has announced non participation in the controversial Nobel peace prize ceremony. Maybe its time we follow the way too.

[jha]

Good diplomacy from Norway.. Already Russia and six other countries including "china" has announced non participation in the controversial Nobel peace prize ceremony. Maybe its time we follow the way too.

yes..Its time to show them what their diplomacy can achieve..

[Rajguru]

Thank you Mr.FM.
You have a great knowledge of whats going inside Kashmir,history of Kashmir etc.
Ph.D in Kashmirology.
So he must be true!

[Bharat Muslim]

[B][SIZE="5"]“current uprising in Kashmir is indigenous and youngsters throwing stones should not be met with bullets. Also, international standards on human rights should be upheld by all including India”.

Most Kashmiris do not want to be with India, okay?

But this post is about stones versus bullets controversy. Racist-Type-Americans paid Indian security forces to reply stone-pelting Kashmiri youth with bullets. RTAs envy Indian security forces because of the better performance compared to how West fared in Iraq and Afghanistan. If the western propaganda were true, not a single Kashmiri would have been alive after 20 years of insurgency.

U.S. and not Pakistan is the enemy of Bharat. More about the sinister designs of RTAs later.

[Fasih Khan]

Shame On India ... They're geting told Off from every other Country. Alhumdulilah yet another great Victory for Kashmir Liberation Stuggle. May Allah Karim do justice to India. Ameen. God Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen. Ameen YaRabulalameen.

[GORKHALI]

[/SIZE]holy!!!!!S#$T CAN ANYONE PROVIDE NEUTRAL LINK HERE !!!AM GETTING CRAZY. I GOOGLED AND FIND NOTHING EVEN IN NORWEGIAN NEWSPAPER OR MEDIA,I EVEN ASKED ONE OF MY FRIEND FROM OSLO ABOUT THIS AND SHE SAID NOTHING!!!! CAN WE ASSUMED THAT NORWEGIAN PHOREN MINISTER ONLY COMMENT INFRONT OF PAKISTAN MEDIA ??????????????????????? AND AINT CANADA DUE TO ITS RECENT MESS WITH INDIAN GOVT BY REJECTING BSF OFFICER VISA GOT AN ANSWER DURING UNSC NON PERMANENT SEAT ?

[Ammyy]

Shame On India ... They're geting told Off from every other Country. Alhumdulilah yet another great Victory for Kashmir Liberation Stuggle. May Allah Karim do justice to India. Ameen. God Bless Kashmiri Mujahideen. Ameen YaRabulalameen.

Look who is talking this thing............

And BTW please post any credible source

[SpArK]

^^

can u please use smaller font ask whatever u need to say in a way that is acceptable to the forum...

[roach]

^^Gave me an instant headache

but, I hear you bro

[nick_indian]

One can only laugh at Pakistanis jumping up and down like kids at this news .

what is the big deal ?

Norway has no influence on India . Period. what it says will make no difference .

When PM of UK says Pakistan is supporting terror Pakistanis say it makes no difference . when someone from norway says soemthing in favour of Pakistan they start celebrating .

double standards i must say .

the truth is both statements make 0 difference on the ground .

[heyheyhey]

Sat Sri Akal

I have been reading news etc on defence.pk for a couple of years now. Not been so interested in participating in any debates, as most of them just end up being the usual “dick-measuring”-contests (I know a lot of Pakistanis here claim that this forum is better then other Pakistani/Indian forums: maybe that used to be true a couple of years back, but honestly I don’t see much difference anymore, which I sad because it used to be good.)

Anyway, the reason I decided to make my first post was because the heading-title of this topic caught my attention, being a Norwegian of Indian (Punjabi) origin. The article posted by UnitedPak is quite misleading, and a perfect example of what the members here call “cherry-picking”.

Jonas Gahr Støre said nothing controversial from Indian POV. The Kashmir conflict is not something that has been getting a lot attention in the local media here in Norway; even the unrest a couple of months back in J&K hardly made it to the news. (Some Norwegian-Pakistani-members here can probably confirm that)

And this speech (It was not even a speech that the government initiated; the Minister of Foreign Affairs, JGS, was simply answering a question raised by a fellow MP in the Norwegian parliament), I only heard about in this forum; it has not been mentioned in the media here at all.

Anyway, I’m posting a link to the official cite of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where the whole transcript of Jonas Gahr Støre’s speech is given. People should read what he said, instead of relying on some biased articles. Unfortunately the speech is only available in Norwegian, but Google translate is quite accurate when it comes to translating from Norwegian to English.

I could have highlighted the sections of special interest, but then I would be accused of doing a little bit of “cherry-picking” my self, wouldn’t I?

And please, to my Indian brothers, stop bashing my country. Jonas Gahr Støre is a great diplomat, and he knows better then putting his foot in his mouth in such sensitive matters.

And my Pakistani brothers, as you soon will realize, there is really nothing worth celebrating about what he said.

Anyway, here it is:
Opps, I'm not allowed to post URLs to other sites until i have made 15 posts more! What to do?

[nick_indian]

Sat Sri Akal

I have been reading news etc on defence.pk for a couple of years now. Not been so interested in participating in any debates, as most of them just end up being the usual “dick-measuring”-contests (I know a lot of Pakistanis here claim that this forum is better then other Pakistani/Indian forums: maybe that used to be true a couple of years back, but honestly I don’t see much difference anymore, which I sad because it used to be good.)

Anyway, the reason I decided to make my first post was because the heading-title of this topic caught my attention, being a Norwegian of Indian (Punjabi) origin. The article posted by UnitedPak is quite misleading, and a perfect example of what the members here call “cherry-picking”.

Jonas Gahr Støre said nothing controversial from Indian POV. The Kashmir conflict is not something that has been getting a lot attention in the local media here in Norway; even the unrest a couple of months back in J&K hardly made it to the news. (Some Norwegian-Pakistani-members here can probably confirm that)

And this speech (It was not even a speech that the government initiated; the Minister of Foreign Affairs, JGS, was simply answering a question raised by a fellow MP in the Norwegian parliament), I only heard about in this forum; it has not been mentioned in the media here at all.

Anyway, I’m posting a link to the official cite of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, where the whole transcript of Jonas Gahr Støre’s speech is given. People should read what he said, instead of relying on some biased articles. Unfortunately the speech is only available in Norwegian, but Google translate is quite accurate when it comes to translating from Norwegian to English.

I could have highlighted the sections of special interest, but then I would be accused of doing a little bit of “cherry-picking” my self, wouldn’t I?

And please, to my Indian brothers, stop bashing my country. Jonas Gahr Støre is a great diplomat, and he knows better then putting his foot in his mouth in such sensitive matters.

And my Pakistani brothers, as you soon will realize, there is really nothing worth celebrating about what he said.

Anyway, here it is:
Opps, I'm not allowed to post URLs to other sites until i have made 15 posts more! What to do?

dont post the url, just mention the web page. someone else can find it and post it for you

[heyheyhey]

Since i cant post the link, i will instead give you guys the "speech".
Remember, its translated with Google translate, so some mistakes are there. If something sound totally wrong, i can help translate.

here you go:

Oversettelse fra norsk (bokmål) til engelsk
Posts in interpellation debate on Kashmir Parliament, 16 November 2010

Interpellation from the representative Knut Arild Hareide (Christian Democrats) to Foreign Minister:
The conflict over control of Kashmir since 1989 has resulted in 80 000-100 000 people have died. Local leaders in Kashmir have expressed that the conflict in the region can no longer be solved through bilateral talks between India and Pakistan, and they have urged the international community to play a more active role. More and more observers also point to the relationship between the situation in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Many argue that it would be impossible to create stability in Afghanistan until we have resolved the question of Kashmir's future. What is the Foreign Minister's assessment of the Norwegian and Nordic opportunities to contribute to the global community increasingly give priority to put pressure on the parties to find a solution to the conflict in Kashmir, and the extent to see the Foreign Minister of Norway's efforts in Afghanistan in the context of the work of a peaceful solution in Kashmir? "

Checked against the performance

Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre main post:

I would first like to thank the representative Hareide for an interpellation about a topic that does not often arrive in the debate, but which nonetheless are crucial - for the people in and around Kashmir, the support here in Norway and for the complex and conflict-ridden region of Kashmir is a part.

I would also like to commend the representative of a good, detailed questions, which also contained a lot of analysis, which I will join.

Kashmir has been the subject of conflict between India and Pakistan for more than 60 years and led to more wars, and, as the representative said, has been one of the most dangerous conflicts that the world has had to deal with in recent years. After some years with a greater degree of stability and positive development, the situation since last summer again deteriorated.

As the representative describes the violence has increased since June last year. In the period from June to September, more than 110 civilians killed in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir. Many of them were older.

I share interpellantens concern over this development. Also the Indian government regrets the situation. Norway considers that human rights standards to be followed by all countries, of course, also of India. Young people who throw stones should not be met by sharp shots. It is also worth recalling that we have equally high expectations that human rights be fully respected in Pakistan.

The background to this current situation is complex: Terror groups have for years been trained in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. They have crossed the de facto border, called the control line, and carried out attacks in Indian-controlled Kashmir. This has at times occurred with the support of the Pakistani army.

India has built an extensive military presence in Indian-controlled Kashmir, and Pakistan a similar presence on their side of the border. There is great frustration among Kashmir's population over a political situation that seems to be stuck. It is also high unemployment in Kashmir, especially among youth. The new riots in the autumn is that these mainly occurred locally in Indian Kashmir.

Beyond the conflict that affects the people in the region, putting the Kashmir tension between nuclear powers India and Pakistan on the tip. It does, of course, conflict extra dangerous.

Norway is following the situation in Kashmir, not least through our embassies in New Delhi and Islamabad. We discuss the conflict in our conversations, both with governments and others in both countries, something I have done during my visit. The embassy in New Delhi has taken up the situation in Kashmir with the Indian authorities, both at central level and with state authorities. The Embassy participated in a joint Nordic delegation to Kashmir in April this year. As was discussed policy issues - including the conditions for human rights - both representatives of state authorities and the police.

In these conversations, we have urged both parties to seek to resolve the conflict by peaceful means and help to avoid new waves of violence, and that local residents' wishes and views should be given considerable weight in a future solution of the conflict. We believe such visits, which draws attention to the conflict and empowering local and central authorities. We have also emphasized that Pakistan and India must work to normalize the overall bilateral relationship, and develop contacts and cooperation between the two countries, regardless of the dispute over Kashmir's future. Increased cooperation between India and Pakistan will be beneficial for both countries' economic development and help to build confidence between them.

Although I fully share the concern for the situation in Kashmir, there are also some positive features: first, the cycle of violence now seems to have slowed. The Indian Prime Minister Singh has repeatedly made it clear that the only path to lasting peace and development in Kashmir is through dialogue. A delegation of representatives of all leading parties in the Indian parliament - including opposition parties - visited Kashmir in September this year. Indian authorities have presented a peace plan for eight points after this broad delegation trip. While not all parties in Kashmir are satisfied with the plan, it represents, in our opinion, an important step in the right direction, namely back to the dialogue track.

Release of detained youth who have participated in demonstrations and stone-throwing, is another step in the right direction. It is further established a negotiating team consisting of representatives of civil society. Some separatistgrupperingene do not want to talk with these representatives, but it is still too early to write off this new dialogue track.

Second, the negotiations between India and Pakistan at a senior level has started again. These began in 2004 but was shelved after the terrorist attacks in Mumbai in November 2008 - an estimate that was planned and executed from Pakistani territory, and as such are linked to groups that have operated out of Kashmir. These negotiations have over the years resulted in positive, confidence-building measures between India and Pakistan. We now hope that India and Pakistan seizes opportunities to use this negotiating track to move forward in efforts to resolve the outstanding border issues, which go beyond the Kashmir issue.

Thirdly, it appears that international human rights organizations can once again get to visit Kashmir after the area has been closed to these organizations for some time. The organization Human Rights Watch visited Kashmir with a delegation in August this year.

We should not underestimate the influence that Indian media. The situation in Kashmir will be reviewed daily, and all information helps to educate the public and the debates in this great democracy India on challenges and possible solutions.

So the sum of this is that we can only hope that the parties build on the positive developments which after all is to track, to create a lasting peace in Kashmir and a lasting peace between India and Pakistan. And if this was not the top, directly advertised, during Obama's visit, we are well aware that the U.S. administration has this high on their agenda in the dialogues respectively India and Pakistan.

I have previously spoken in this chamber is clear that the international community - including Norway - must do what we can to encourage positive developments in relations between India and Pakistan - and a final solution to the countries' conflict over the territory. At the same time that the countries themselves, India and Pakistan, who must take the necessary steps to resolve the conflict among themselves. A solution can not be imposed from outside. Pakistan and India have also agreed that a solution for the whole of Kashmir - on both sides of the border - would have found through bilateral negotiations, known as the Simla Agreement of 1972.

Today, there are considerable differences of opinion as to what should be the original Kashmir's future. Indian Kashmir has democracy and elections within the framework of the Indian state. The original Pakistani-controlled Kashmir is divided into three parts: first, the Gilgit-Baltistan, which is incorporated in Pakistan, then Azad Kashmir, who according to Pakistan is an independent Kashmir, and a third part, which Pakistan has ceded to China, Aksai Chin. At the same holds both Indian and Pakistani Kashmir separatist group seeking independence for a united Kashmir.

It appears from the Indian side held that their willingness to enter into negotiations with Pakistan is conditional on the country's determination to prevent Pakistani territory used to plan and carry out attacks against India. The negotiation process is therefore fragile. However, there are no alternatives to such negotiations, and the international community must support them fully. It also applies to the United Nations, the representative was right on.

At last: Interpellanten points out that many claim that "it will be impossible to create stability in Afghanistan until we have resolved the question of Kashmir's future."

It is obvious that the conflicts in the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir have had, and have a mobilizing effect against certain groups in the Afghan conflict. We have seen that radical Islamists have fought in many of these conflicts. And we can also see traces of the conflicts from Kashmir lifted into the Afghan territory and actually be fought there as part of fighting also between India and Pakistan.

But that being said, I think we should be cautious about drawing the conclusion that peace in a region, or in one of these countries are directly dependent on the solution in another. A positive development in one or more of the aforementioned areas of conflict can certainly contribute to some extent to curb the conflict in other areas, but there is no control here. At the same time we can only wish peace in these areas and be sure that it will affect psychologically in a region that is characterized by many conflicts. But the causes are, as I have pointed out, many and complex. I also discussed the issue of Afghanistan and regional stability with my colleagues during my trip to the region earlier this year.

Until recently, about Norway's role: When it comes to negotiations, my experience in traveling in the region has been that I am of Pakistani representatives often urged that Norway should undertake a mediation role between Pakistan and India. The clear call to be as clearly met by a clear message to India that this is a bilateral issue. If one is to play such a role, whether you are qualified for it, it must be desired from both sides. I feel that India is very clear that it is the bilateral track, the bilateral political contact, which here must get results. However, Norway will be keen to contribute in that way we can, although there is no basis for any Norwegian involvement as a mediator or facilitator in this area. We are also in contact with the countries in the region, not least in relation to the U.S..

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Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre reply Post:

I'm not here and now in a position to, nor willing, to point to India with a special responsibility. I want to use the wording that the parties, and I mean India and Pakistan - and I will also emphasize the importance of pull with the people of Kashmir - is responsible. One can, when you listen to the Indian representatives, have made a fairly systematic case that exposes India's challenge of terrorism, illegal units from the Pakistani area, which puts Indian security forces on a difficult task. You can also listen to the Pakistani representations that show a lack of progress towards clarified the status of Kashmir and violence by the security authorities. I think that pointing out that one of the parties has a particular responsibility, actually weakens our ability to push both parties.

I think that that is the way to go now, the two tracks. One is that what I interpret as a clear willingness by the Indian Prime Minister, namely, to continue the dialogue between India and Pakistan and make it into a broader and more binding, deeper political track should continue - hopefully without the interruptions that the terrorist attack Mumbai led to. It must not happen again. At the same time Pakistan must also demonstrate in practice that groups from Kashmiri areas, which in turn affects India. In other words: Both sides have a rich agenda to take hold of each side to create both confidence and progress.

So I think, as the representative says that it is important to have international attention on the issue, the UN, in a regional context and in relation to the U.S. - but also other actors in the region. This reminds me of Afghanistan, you do not get a solution to the specific conflict without the neighboring countries around with and build up under it. So, yes, the responsibility of the parties, but I do not think it will serve this development that Norway chose one of the parties and said that it had a special responsibility. They must succeed together that this question will come closer to a solution.

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Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre's closing statement:

Let me again thank interpellanten for having raised this question. So I would ask a counter question, as a summary. Why in the world, Norwegian parliamentarians in peaceful Oslo, Norway in a peaceful, focused on this conflict up the mountainous areas in the region that we have talked about? Why do we spend time and commitment to it, put us into the conflict, engage in it?

Yes, it is for the simple reason that it affects a large number of people that it's easy to get close to and - shall we say - with empathy. It builds on that we have a political understanding of this conflict's impact on a much wider conflict pattern in the region, and, in the latter sense, as parliament and government, we understand that the developments in Kashmir, indeed, may have implications for our own security in a world where so much hangs together. From the analysis we can lead back to that there is a commitment in Norway, among many Norwegians, in this chamber, again in separate groups and also in government, to do what Norway can to contribute to this conflict also comes in on the right track.

I think that much of the analysis here today has been good in the direction of the parties' responsibilities are emphasized, in the sense that we have an international right to focus on this. It follows up another debate, about whether there is interference in the internal affairs of other countries that engage in issues related to human rights, refugees, atrocities, the spread of unrest and terror. No, we can not look at it as interference in internal affairs. It's actually affairs of the region and the world as a whole.

I can say that we in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, at our embassies in the relevant countries - they are more than two - but especially in India and Pakistan and through the various international fora in which we participate, will continue to focus on this conflict and have contact with Parliament on the follow-up.

[heyheyhey]

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Thanks, you can search for the speech at regjeringen.no