Pakistan Army Information

[xeric]

Originally Posted by S-2

I promised a response to some comments made by our and perceptions that I believe may be possessed by you reference the U.S. Army and marine/army infantry.

"i forgot you are from the great US military(no sarcsim please) and you don't use infantry and armor as we do in the sub-continent."

First, I'd argue that utilization is a function of need. To that end, most of the central operating tenets of combined arms operations IN ANY BATTLE ENVIRONMENT have been well-covered by our forefathers.

Whether you're engaged in a LIC, MIC, or HIC, we'll need a mix of forces on the battlefield-engineers, artillery, light and heavy infantry, armor, and attack aviation to succeed. These pure companies must be doctrinally inculcated to create "teams" (a formal military term in the U.S. Army's operational lexicon) of mixed infantry/armor platoons at the company level and "task force" at the battalion level. Thus any company or battalion level commander must be prepared to structurally integrated elements from other branches into a team or task force by order of higher headquarters.

This could include the allocation of an M1A2 company to an airborne infantry battalion, for example or vice versa. We routinely practice cross-attachments and do so to always optimize our available forces for the most likely contingencies from mission to mission.

Other armies operate the same from mission to mission. This "combined arms integration" is simply "best practices" management as it seeks to tailor local and flexible solutions to narrow requirements within a given area of operations. Nobody knows the ground so well as the battle commander, so he should have the freedom to shape his forces as necessary.

This is important because...

"For you and your force differentiating these two things might not possible because your forces are trained accordingly and are best suited for a specific type of operation."

This isn't remotely true. We operate to support global policies and obligations of the United States government under constraint of budget and law. We cannot afford to train, with the exception of our SOF, forces allocated to specific operations or mission type at the expense of others.

We are an expeditionary army-an extension of our marine corps, if you will. All of our forces- light, medium, or heavy must train to deploy into any possible contingency from peacekeeping and humanitarian aid (OOTW) through the full spectrum of conflict to global thermonuclear combat.

Our troops must be able to "throw the switch" from directing vehicle traffic in security ops through full blown urban combat back to patrolling a neighborhood at sunset.

A myriad of skills and sub-sets of skills encompassed just there and they must be sufficiently mentally and physically agile to do so quickly.

The army I trained in thirty years ago might have reflected some of your thoughts. We had a goodly number of guys who knew little else besides the Fulda Gap in central Germany and had spent near-half (if not more) of their careers there.

Different ball of wax now. When artillery batteries pull infantry patrols you know that we're adjusting to ground realities off a considerably broader skill-set than once was the case.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Thnx for the detail response!
But you and i have to agree that our militaries do work differently.

If you'll say i will quote you a few examples.

[ejaz007]

Pakistan accepts Australian offer to train its forces
Updated at: 0600 PST, Tuesday, February 17, 2009


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Monday accepted an Australian offer to train its armed forces.
The offer was made by the Australian Foreign Minister Stephen Smith who arrived here on Monday morning for a three-day official visit to Islamabad.

Addressing a news conference along with his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mahmood Qureshi here, Australian Foreign Minister said that Australia has also increased four fold training opportunities for personnel of Pakistani armed forces.

He said Australia would substantially increase development assistance to help revive Pakistan’s economy.

Foreign Minister Qureshi said Pakistan has sought greater market access of Pakistani exports especially textiles into Australia by way of tariff concessions.

Similarly, Pakistan also proposed greater Australian investment in Pakistan so as to generate jobs and attain the country economic and political stability.

The foreign minister said the two countries are working on two agreements. One is Memorandum of Understanding between Narcotics Control Division and Australian Federal Police and the other is agreement between FIA and its Australian counterpart.

Qureshi said the two countries have discussed prospects of increasing cooperation in economic, trade, agriculture, livestock and defence fields.

He said the two sides also discussed how they can enhance investment opportunities for Australia in Pakistan and in this connection pinpointed areas of oil and gas, mining, power generation, agriculture and dairy development.

The two sides also agreed to cooperate in promoting inter-faith dialogue by way of promoting true tradition of moderate Islam and Sufi-ism.

Pakistan accepts Australian offer to train its forces

[S-2]

A very good deal. Superb soldiers who are really practiced at both ends of the fight-pulling triggers and pacification.

[waraich66]

Originally Posted by S-2

A very good deal. Superb soldiers who are really practiced at both ends of the fight-pulling triggers and pacification.

In which area Australians are considered better in world ?

I dont think Australians have well known position in other fields except sports.

[S-2]

Let's wait and see if ratus ratus wishes to answer your question. He's a former australian army officer who might have a view or two on what they can provide.

[Ratus Ratus]

The following are the relevant extracts from the Joint media conference with Pakistani Foreign Minister Qureshi
Release 16 February 2009
Joint media conference with Pakistani Foreign Minister Qureshi - Transcript - The Hon Stephen Smith MP, Minister for Foreign Affairs

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi:
“...
Plus, in defence cooperation a four-fold increase in our army officers going to Australia for training, and Australian support for democracy and democratic institutions in Pakistan, support for a vibrant civil society in Pakistan
...”

Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs Stephen Smith:
“...
I’ve indicated to the Minister that we’re proposing to increase by four times the number of Pakistani defence personnel invited to Australia for training purposes. Our respective chiefs of our armed forces are meeting in Australia in the first half of this year for what are becoming regular heads of armed forces dialogue, and we continue to offer Pakistan as much assistance as we can in these technical and training areas. That’s because we very strongly support a democratic Pakistan.
...”

This clarifies the original posting re this assistance.

Such an arrangement would cover Pakistani Officers and probably senior NCOs.
It is conjecture as to whether these will be SF personnel, normal line officers or both.

[SamJarwar]

Awesome Text
Thanks I was in search of this kind of stuff

[fatman17]

Originally Posted by SamJarwar

Awesome Text
Thanks I was in search of this kind of stuff

my pleasure! also check the Indian Army in the Indian section, however it is still under construction.

[A1Kaid]

Originally Posted by fatman17

my pleasure! also check the Indian Army in the Indian section, however it is still under construction.

*In a snappy Army Voice*

Good Job Fatman! I am promoting you to Army Chief of Staff, First thing in the morning! Your service to the nation is impeccable!

[fatman17]

Originally Posted by A1Kaid

*In a snappy Army Voice*

Good Job Fatman! I am promoting you to Army Chief of Staff, First thing in the morning! Your service to the nation is impeccable!

its quite obvious u need serious help!

[A1Kaid]

Originally Posted by fatman17

its quite obvious u need serious help!

It's quite obvious you need a sense of humor, lighten up fatman (pardon the pun)...

[blain2]

Originally Posted by Ratus Ratus

The following are the relevant extracts from the Joint media conference with Pakistani Foreign Minister Qureshi
Release 16 February 2009
Joint media conference with Pakistani Foreign Minister Qureshi - Transcript - The Hon Stephen Smith MP, Minister for Foreign Affairs

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi:
“...
Plus, in defence cooperation a four-fold increase in our army officers going to Australia for training, and Australian support for democracy and democratic institutions in Pakistan, support for a vibrant civil society in Pakistan
...”

Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs Stephen Smith:
“...
I’ve indicated to the Minister that we’re proposing to increase by four times the number of Pakistani defence personnel invited to Australia for training purposes. Our respective chiefs of our armed forces are meeting in Australia in the first half of this year for what are becoming regular heads of armed forces dialogue, and we continue to offer Pakistan as much assistance as we can in these technical and training areas. That’s because we very strongly support a democratic Pakistan.
...”

This clarifies the original posting re this assistance.

Such an arrangement would cover Pakistani Officers and probably senior NCOs.
It is conjecture as to whether these will be SF personnel, normal line officers or both.

This is the right kind of approach. The biggest detriment to US-Pakistan military relations has been the cutoff of IMET during the 90s. The more overseas training they get, the broader the horizons of the officers. These sorts of exchanges also help others understand Pakistan and her security compulsions better.

It is good that IMET has been restored however its nowhere close to the traffic we saw in the 60s.

Secondly, there should also be a more open policy for Pakistani students (civilians) to get out to the west and get educational opportunities. Exposure to the west for the military alone cannot solve the issues around distrust.

[xeric]

Originally Posted by blain2

This is the right kind of approach. The biggest detriment to US-Pakistan military relations has been the cutoff of IMET during the 90s. The more overseas training they get, the broader the horizons of the officers. These sorts of exchanges also help others understand Pakistan and her security compulsions better.

It is good that IMET has been restored however its nowhere close to the traffic we saw in the 60s.

Secondly, there should also be a more open policy for Pakistani students (civilians) to get out to the west and get educational opportunities. Exposure to the west for the military alone cannot solve the issues around distrust.

Though the number of Officer going for course via the IMET Program is limited but atleast it has restarted. Moreover, the military has also started sending the Officers on foreign courses to countries other then USA! That's a guud action i supposed as it counters the dependability thing.

[Ratus Ratus]

Originally Posted by blain2

This is the right kind of approach. The biggest detriment to US-Pakistan military relations has been the cutoff of IMET during the 90s. The more overseas training they get, the broader the horizons of the officers. These sorts of exchanges also help others understand Pakistan and her security compulsions better.

It is good that IMET has been restored however its nowhere close to the traffic we saw in the 60s.

Secondly, there should also be a more open policy for Pakistani students (civilians) to get out to the west and get educational opportunities. Exposure to the west for the military alone cannot solve the issues around distrust.

My personal feeling is Pakistan should look seriously at regional interaction before moving out side the region. Regional interaction builds strong region ties and that is more important strategically.

The other point is further down the radical line.
Many nations have what is called secondments to other nations training establishments. Here and officer usually of rank Capt. and above will be posted to a training establishment of another nation. There that officer will become part of the teaching team. Some examples here in Australia, we have officers from the UK and USA attending as instructors at RMC Duntroon and our Land Warfare Centre. Australia also has officers at US & UK military establishments as well.
My radical suggestion is that Pakistan investigates this form of arrangement. Again a regional approach would be a smart initial move.

As for students this is naturally a tricky and thorny issue.
Students from various countries attend Australian Universities. The problem that I see is the lack of interaction as these students tend to form like groups. These groups don’t interact and also have in many cases education problems. The biggest one being plagiarism in one form or another. This does not help in cultural interaction and disbanding mistrust form both sides.
Again look at posts here of people residing outside Pakistan. Many have a narrow view an have not from what they post diminished their distrust.

ON a side: I was an officer in the Aust Army, I have been in various postings from SI Training through to Coy Commd. I hold 2 degrees, one post graduate, and have also spent many years as a senior lecture at an Australian University in charge of a department. I have still some level of interaction with the Army. So I have some limited understanding.

[qsaark]

Many nations have what is called secondments to other nations training establishments. Here and officer usually of rank Capt. and above will be posted to a training establishment of another nation. There that officer will become part of the teaching team. Some examples here in Australia, we have officers from the UK and USA attending as instructors at RMC Duntroon and our Land Warfare Centre. Australia also has officers at US & UK military establishments as well.
My radical suggestion is that Pakistan investigates this form of arrangement. Again a regional approach would be a smart initial move.

Pakistan already has this kind of arrangement in place. Pakistani officers attend foreign military colleges and foreign military officers visit Pakistan. I lived in Quetta which has one such Institution called the Command and Staff College.

As for students this is naturally a tricky and thorny issue.
Students from various countries attend Australian Universities. The problem that I see is the lack of interaction as these students tend to form like groups. These groups don’t interact and also have in many cases education problems. The biggest one being plagiarism in one form or another. This does not help in cultural interaction and disbanding mistrust form both sides.
Again look at posts here of people residing outside Pakistan. Many have a narrow view an have not from what they post diminished their distrust.

I have to agree with you here. Our students are generally shy and suffer with severe kind of inferiority complex (not all though). Thanks to the Brits, they went home but left us with their language. At any rate, our students should overcome their complex and move among the locals. My Dad happened to did his post graduation from UNSW, Sydney. He told me good things about Australians and funny things about how Pakistani students used to interact with them.

What you call narrow view is what I call 'independent approach'. I do appreciate a lot of things about US, at the same time, I am critical to their foreign policy. While living in US, I may have sold my professional skills, but I have not sold my conscious, my religion and my culture. And I have found that my American friends have always appreciated my respect for my religion. They never insist me to drink with them, or to go to night clubs, or to get involve in other activities. I don’t interfere in their way of life, they don’t interfere in my way of life. Unfortunately, this degree of tolerance is not found in the US foreign policy.

I was an officer in the Aust Army, I have been in various postings from SI Training through to Coy Commd. I hold 2 degrees, one post graduate, and have also spent many years as a senior lecture at an Australian University in charge of a department. I have still some level of interaction with the Army. So I have some limited understanding.

I respect your credentials. On a side: My Grand Dad did his graduation from Cambridge, UK in 1920s, my Dad did his post graduation from Australia, I did my PhD and Post-Doc from the US, yet, after three generation long interaction with the foreigners, we have still preserved our culture, religion and independent thought process.