Pakistan and Israel

[lionheartsalahudin]

In my opinion Israel is a definite enemy ,and is responsible for the emergence of extremist Islamic movements due to its hegemonic and trigger happy approach ,Jerusalem is a city worth fighting for and laying life for to regain Jerusalem and asqa mosque would be a great honour for any muslim.
Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated their motivation was arab nationalism,nationalism might work when u have technological advantage over enemy viceversa it is suicide men no matter how patriotic they might be, have their limits when it comes to nationalistic approach towards war of aggression,so after defeat in few battles they loose their will to fight ,kill and sacrificeTheir lives for a victory and glory that they might not see. In a defensive war patriotism is a plus point in war of aggression it has limits rest u can fill it in.
Coming down to Pakistan and why it is considered a threat to Israel by Zionists,bcuz from the beginning Pakistan is a an ideological state formed on the basis of religion,not race,not region,not financial interests,so basically every Pakistani muslim feels obliged and connected to the ummah(the global brotherhood of islam),moreover the founder of Pakistan in one of his speech said “Pakistan is the fort of islam” further incorporating into Pakistani muslims that u have too look after the whole ummah!
IMO without islam there would,nt be any urge for a muslim homeland in subcontinent and without its derive no homeland would have been achieved ,all those liberals who think they can turn Pakistan into secular state will have to face 90percent of pakistan’s population ,back to the topic as there is a huge bonding of Pakistanis with the ummah and its affairs ,any one who hurts the ummah hurts Pakistanis anyone who is friend of the ummah is the friend of pakistani’s and I stress Pakistani’s not the government,I challenge anyone politican to come out in the open and say to pakistani’s lets befriend Israel,and u will see what will happen to him ,and then try the other way around that we are going to attack Israel so start joining the army and then see the turn out,we pakistani’s at the core are emotional people,so u liberals just keep ur dumb advice to urself or say it out abroad don’t even dare to say that in pak.
My conclusion why arabs lost wars is becauz of their nationalist motivation,why Pakistani muslims will win the war is religious motivation ,we will be ready to run millions of volunteers even poorly armed voluntarily into Jerusalem (think Stalingrad 2nd ww but attacking not defending) bcuz they will know if they free Jerusalem into muslim hands for the sake of ALLAH they will have eternal rewards even if they sacrifice themselves doing it,Death to Israel and all those pakistanis who think they can befriend israel they are enemies within go live in a secular country,and inshallah if religion is the motivation then u will see swarms of muslims from every country joining us even if not their gvts,LONG LIVE PAKISTAN death to Israeli puppets TTP!&other sponsors.

[Super Falcon]

indian boxers are joke just one win and they think they r best but truely they r nuts amir khan out of 21 fights won 20 is any indian have this type pf record if he is indian than he must be muslim as great mohammad ali was

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Most ppl don't realize that the Arabs , the Shieks of Arabia who helped Britain in WW1 had an agreement to get arabian desert lands in return for supporting them against Ottoman Empires.

In essesnce they sorta were traitors to Empire which was once called Ottoman Empire.

Once British won, they have the sheiks (mercenaries) lands
(Saudia/Kuwait/ Bahrain/Oman/UAE/Qater etc), and they also bought
some land legally (as far as I know for Jewish people I think to settled them there -

The Arabs , then attacked Israel and said get out , Israelis at that time had better weapons they sorta won anyways , and instead took more land - so if Arabs had actually abided by their contract and let the jewish ppl live there - there would be no war

Then they had second war, with Israel and we all know how well that went - 6 days whole war was over - and more land was lost

Then they simply built walls around Palestine remaining land, so they don'thave to see any suffering - and just look away.. like Egypt does not - they just close border and live in their own countries.

So , here we are Pakistan , miles away from Israel , we would be making great trade with Israel if it was not for Palestine , which is purely an Arabic , issue

How often do Arabs support Pakistan ?? Other then ocassional Oil or money help to Pakistan -

Unless Arabs come to Pakistan and give us 100 billion or something to get weapons and fighters from us , and may be we can open a base in Saudia or other countries perhaps we can help out but other then that there is not much we can do ...

[alirulesall123]

Originally Posted by lionheartsalahudin

In my opinion Israel is a definite enemy ,and is responsible for the emergence of extremist Islamic movements due to its hegemonic and trigger happy approach ,Jerusalem is a city worth fighting for and laying life for to regain Jerusalem and asqa mosque would be a great honour for any muslim.
Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated their motivation was arab nationalism,nationalism might work when u have technological advantage over enemy viceversa it is suicide men no matter how patriotic they might be, have their limits when it comes to nationalistic approach towards war of aggression,so after defeat in few battles they loose their will to fight ,kill and sacrificeTheir lives for a victory and glory that they might not see. In a defensive war patriotism is a plus point in war of aggression it has limits rest u can fill it in.
Coming down to Pakistan and why it is considered a threat to Israel by Zionists,bcuz from the beginning Pakistan is a an ideological state formed on the basis of religion,not race,not region,not financial interests,so basically every Pakistani muslim feels obliged and connected to the ummah(the global brotherhood of islam),moreover the founder of Pakistan in one of his speech said “Pakistan is the fort of islam” further incorporating into Pakistani muslims that u have too look after the whole ummah!
IMO without islam there would,nt be any urge for a muslim homeland in subcontinent and without its derive no homeland would have been achieved ,all those liberals who think they can turn Pakistan into secular state will have to face 90percent of pakistan’s population ,back to the topic as there is a huge bonding of Pakistanis with the ummah and its affairs ,any one who hurts the ummah hurts Pakistanis anyone who is friend of the ummah is the friend of pakistani’s and I stress Pakistani’s not the government,I challenge anyone politican to come out in the open and say to pakistani’s lets befriend Israel,and u will see what will happen to him ,and then try the other way around that we are going to attack Israel so start joining the army and then see the turn out,we pakistani’s at the core are emotional people,so u liberals just keep ur dumb advice to urself or say it out abroad don’t even dare to say that in pak.
My conclusion why arabs lost wars is becauz of their nationalist motivation,why Pakistani muslims will win the war is religious motivation ,we will be ready to run millions of volunteers even poorly armed voluntarily into Jerusalem (think Stalingrad 2nd ww but attacking not defending) bcuz they will know if they free Jerusalem into muslim hands for the sake of ALLAH they will have eternal rewards even if they sacrifice themselves doing it,Death to Israel and all those pakistanis who think they can befriend israel they are enemies within go live in a secular country,and inshallah if religion is the motivation then u will see swarms of muslims from every country joining us even if not their gvts,LONG LIVE PAKISTAN death to Israeli puppets TTP!&other sponsors.

Ramblings of a Jihadist....

Seriously though, Why is palestine considered a "muslim cause" and Kashmir is not? Any of your islamist hypocrites wanna point that out for me?

[ptldM3]

Originally Posted by lionheartsalahudin

Now coming down to why arabs lost every offensive war against Israel bcuz they were not religiously motivated

.:

When people go to war they turn to god even if they arn't religious, and all the religious motivation in the world wouldn't help the arbs beat the Israelis. The fact is the Israeli pilots were the best in the world, the arab pilots, on the other hand, were very poorly trained. Consiquently, the Israeli Air Force massacred the Arabs both in the air and on the ground. Likewise, the Israeli gernerals were just superior. For instace, they attacked the Egyptian airfields when they knew most of the Egyptian generals were either home or headed home. As a result, they knocked out most of the Arab aircraft on the ground. Then the Israeli generals attacked the Arabs with the sun was facing towards them, making it difficult to see the Israeli army. Israeli tanks were able to get better possitions behind sand duns, making it very difficult to knock out the Israeli tanks, and lastly the Israeli groud crews were working around the clock. They managed to refuel, reload, and perform maintanance at an unbelievible rate. As a result, the Israeli Air Force was able to pound Arab possitions as well as engage Arab aircraft, which in turn kept Israeli ground forces safe.

In short, the Arabs would have been massacred either way.

[alirulesall123]

Don't bother reasoning with these pseudo-arab idiots, russian dude. This guys don't understand basic logic as long as they lick Arab ***.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Originally Posted by alirulesall123

Ramblings of a Jihadist....

Seriously though, Why is palestine considered a "muslim cause" and Kashmir is not? Any of your islamist hypocrites wanna point that out for me?

Well both problem are land disputes -

1947 UN resolution , which has agreement from both India and Pakistan which states that there will be elections in Kashmire to determine the future of state, this is a stright forward resolution

That UN comes in helds open election and we are done

But if India is persistent to keep its armies there and enforce , its presense that does not helps, its just like Israel when it held Syrian hills but eventually they left the golan heights was it ??

So India should do so for peace

Now Palestine is unique since , christianity , Jewish people and Muslims all have their holy lands present there - at least Hindus don't have to worry about that place

Solution is VERY simlpe, UN runs Jeruselem , and prayer times are allocated in the place for all people equally and UN police runs the facility End of story

Remove the check point remove the bombs remove the guns and remove suffering -
this is what humanity demands and this should be way towards peace in that place

We as human can solve the issues but the problem is with people un willing to sit down , and solve the matter -

I do think that Jewish people have some legal case to be living in Israel , infact under Muslim rule (when muslim civilization was prominent) , Jewish people were integral part of Islamic Empire and they held high dignitary roles and there were people of state
and courts , people who say that Jewish people and Muslims don't get along have never research history

Muslims and Jewish People were quite close thru out the time when Ottoman empires and others reigned the world

I suggest people go and research , I think even in Salahdin time Jewish people were present in holy lands , so were christians and Muslims and they have always been relatively close, history of 800-1200 years

Differences started to emerg in ww1 , when Ottoman sided with germany , and of course in WW2 , when Jewish people faced mass extinctions as result of brutal kills and genonocides. and this created a backlash , a nation was born which only knew how to defend itself with guns and weapons .......

Some time in near future we do need brave leaders on both side to step up and say look , enough of this - let UN run the holy lands, and we will develop borders so that people of both faiths can live peacefully

Its very simple solution -

[mughaljee]

The Holly Quran words,
They can't be your friends.

[dez]

Not accepting israel will not make Palestine free..become friend with israel and then have dialogues with them.

[pak-yes]

Many Muslim countries have accepted Israel what have they gained.Have they been able to force Israel for peace through dialogue.NO

[nightcrawler]

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Israel-Pakistan Relations.zip

Who wants to befriend USA but you are not going anywhere without them!! So plz its the same with Israeil not be an emotional child be clever you partner with Israeil not on friendship accounts but on the principle of mutual
dependencies. Israeil really want Pakistan to help it out for a kind off peace treaty b/w Israeil & Arabs I daresay Israeil will welcome Pakistan if Pakistan helped it to survive peacefully in a danger zone of Arabs & in the same time Palestinian issue may be resolved.
So we get two bonus
1 A stand in international affairs
2 Large defence technology from Israeil

I hope any men wiser will think about it as its in our bestest interest & not the maulana rallies against Israeil which certainly ain't going to do any good

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Originally Posted by mughaljee

The Holly Quran words,
They can't be your friends.

The same holy quran also says don't be jugemental between arabi , and non arabic (in whole context it means don't differentiate) or discriminate against ppl , one who is dearest to almighty is one who is the most observant ..

Don't be judgemental - I never recall any statement in quran that says anything negative on jews or christians , it just says to accept that they have their religion and we have our own simple as that -

If discrimination was allowed, i am sure half of the court cases that Prophet , announced in favor of jews would not have been made, jews were integral part of arabic society and have always been part of arabic region..

Israelis are decendents of Ishaq (Isac) peace be upon him and Muslims from Ismael (Peace be upon him) who were son of Ibrahim , so by you logic , if they are both decendent from Ibrahim (Peace be upon him) technically they are distant cousins

If you can understand that logic , great else you might want to check some documents

[fhassan]

Originally Posted by mughaljee

The Holly Quran words,
They can't be your friends.

Not quite, what the Qur'an says is very interesting Indeed:

As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably.

God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of [your] faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid [others] in driving you forth: and as for those [from among you] who turn towards them in friendship; it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!

(Quran 60:8-9)

I can't argue with that; nor could any sane person.

Now, it is up to you to judge whether or not Israel meets the criteria with whom friendship is forbidden. Personally, I think Israel fits the bill quite well.

Islam does not disallow friendship with Jews or Christians just because they happen to be Jews or Christians. To believe this is erroneous, a Muslim man for example can marry a Jewish or Christian lady.

For a more detailed analysis, please read Israeli soldiers fire on Al Jazeera correspondent

[Bushy]

When the religious Israelis and Pakistanis covertly joined against a common atheist enemy:


Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv, says a recently published book, Charlie Wilson’s War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History.

The book reveals that the Pakistan Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation with Israel, although it did not acknowledge any contact with that country publicly. Congressman Charles Wilson — a pro-Pakistan activist and the central figure to get CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan — is credited in the 550-page book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman “whom General Ziaul Haq fancied”.

The book claims that Wilson asked Zia to deal with the Israelis during his first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made at a grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was later named as Honorary Consul of Pakistan.

The book says that Charlie Wilson informed Zia the Israelis had shown him the “vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon”. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled, saying, “Just don’t put any Stars of David on the boxes”.

“With that encouragement,” the narrative goes on, “Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army’s Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis.

“It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the US embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his people’s hatred for both Israel and the United States [but] he encouraged Wilson to continue.”

The Congressman cut the Pak-Israel deal “even without CIA knowledge”. The CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson’s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, dismissed the story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it. Yet, an astonishing collection of weapons was developed for the Afghan war in no time. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets.

The weapon’s name was chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of the gun were being built by the Israelis, claims the book.

It was decided that a new weapon would be introduced into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.

The book has been selling well in the USA but is still not available in Pakistan.

Source: Daily Times Monitor

[niaz]

Originally Posted by ptldM3

When people go to war they turn to god even if they arn't religious, and all the religious motivation in the world wouldn't help the arbs beat the Israelis. The fact is the Israeli pilots were the best in the world, the arab pilots, on the other hand, were very poorly trained. Consiquently, the Israeli Air Force massacred the Arabs both in the air and on the ground. Likewise, the Israeli gernerals were just superior. For instace, they attacked the Egyptian airfields when they knew most of the Egyptian generals were either home or headed home. As a result, they knocked out most of the Arab aircraft on the ground. Then the Israeli generals attacked the Arabs with the sun was facing towards them, making it difficult to see the Israeli army. Israeli tanks were able to get better possitions behind sand duns, making it very difficult to knock out the Israeli tanks, and lastly the Israeli groud crews were working around the clock. They managed to refuel, reload, and perform maintanance at an unbelievible rate. As a result, the Israeli Air Force was able to pound Arab possitions as well as engage Arab aircraft, which in turn kept Israeli ground forces safe.

In short, the Arabs would have been massacred either way.

Having worked for 3 years in Kuwait and now 4 years in UAE. I have come across bright Arabs as well as some total idiots. Don’t think that intelligence and competence is a preserve of the Israelis or any specific nation. Given equal education, it is always roughly 80/20 ratio. That is, about 20% are good and 80% from ordinary to lousy. The difference lies in recognition of merit.

The family you belong to makes a lot of difference in the Arab culture; much more so than in Pakistan. To quote a real example, I know of a very competent Arab Engineer who was held back; although a local, he was not considered good enough because his mother was an Iranian. Instead a person of below average competence was made head of the refinery because his father was very influential.

We also come across such kind of thing in Pakistan every day, but it is more prevalent in the Arab countries. Leaders are chosen only based on their family connection can in no way compete with those who have come up due to merit alone.

Therein lies heart of the problem. You find Pakistanis working for foreign firms and holding high position equal to any one of any other nationality. However, in Pakistan, with a few exceptions, majority of the leaders of the armed forces as well as government are quite ordinary. Niazi of 1971 surrender was the most glaring example. Education Minister in the first Benazir Govt was not even matric pass but he was a Sindhi and from a large landed family. We also saw neptoism at work in cricket when a very young Javed Burki was made captain of Pakistani team due to his father being Lt Gen Burki.

As long as true merit is not given recognition; either due to ethnicity, nepotisn sect or religion, no nation can compete on equal terms at the international level at any thing.