Siachen Glacier, Fighting On The Roof Of The World

[All-Green]

Originally Posted by arihant

What pakistan did in Kargil ? I mean what pressure it made on India with international pressure. Please elaborate in detail.

You jumped the gun since I think he was referring to the Indian pressure on Pakistan during Kargil...

In Siachin, India is the aggressor...so similar pressure should be applied by Pakistan.

[arihant]

Originally Posted by All-Green

You jumped the gun since I think he was referring to the Indian pressure on Pakistan during Kargil...

In Siachin, India is the aggressor...so similar pressure should be applied by Pakistan.

He was talking about Pressure on India about Kargil. I have no idea on this and that was base for my reply. Should we continue this discussion ?

Reason for Aggression was, Visa provided by Pak for Siachen. There left no option for Indian Army to do. What would have happen if you could have covered whole siachen. You would have given up ? right.

[fatman17]

Let’s start with Siachen

Tuesday, December 01, 2009

Dr Saleem H Ali

No doubt both the United States and India have much to share in terms of trade ties and a mutual tradition of democratic institutions. However, despite his intellectual pedigree and celebrated reputation as a moderate on matters of war and peace, Singh has shown little leadership in resolving any territorial disputes with Pakistan. President Obama is said to have exertd some pressure on India in this regard but to no avail. The Indian-American lobby has succeeded in marginalising Pakistan and getting it lumped together with Afghanistan as an “******” phenomenon. The acronym appears to have some media appeal more for phonetic sound bites than for any real substance.

Indeed, tying the problems of Pakistan’s tribal areas with Afghanistan has created a self-fulfilling prophecy for the ****** adherents, since this conflation fuels the fire of conspiracy theorists who keep insidiously suggesting that the US has an interest in destabilising Pakistan.

Sadly, on the eastern frontier, the Mumbai attacks have served the goal of the terrorists and military hawks on either side by stalling the peace process. However, Singh could still show some mark of statesmanship and move towards a resolution of the long-standing territorial disputes between the two countries. Kashmir is certainly an intractable problem because it can lead to a slippery slope for India’s myriad other sectarian conflicts. Providing some further measure of autonomy in Kashmir could further strengthen other separatist movements that are simmering in Assam and other parts of the country. Since a comprehensive dispute settlement strategy has eluded both countries for 62 years, perhaps the best way to approach Kashmir is incrementally resolving some of the other territorial disputes. First on the list should be a resolution to the Siachen conflict.

Several pragmatic solutions have already been proposed and with very little loss in political capital both countries can make a huge cognitive jump in resolving this dispute. For the past several years, various constituencies in South Asia and beyond have been attempting to establish a jointly managed conservation area, or ‘peace park’, in the Karakoram Mountains which divide the hostile nations of India and Pakistan. Researchers, mountaineers, and conservationists have joined forces to promote their vision of using environmental cooperation to make the magnificent Siachen Glacier region — militarised since 1986 — safe for geographers, tourists, and wildlife. This is an uninhabited region which, military leaders on both sides agree, has little military importance and yet soldiers are dying of hypothermia at elevations exceeding 18,000 feet above sea level.

Peace parks are trans-boundary conservation areas that seek to mitigate conflict through environmental cooperation between neighbouring countries. The idea can be traced back to the time-tested tradition of post-war memorials aimed at healing wounds between adversaries. However, they can also be used in zones of active conflict as a conflict-resolution strategy. For example, the establishment of a peace park in the Cordillera del Condor region, mediated by the United States and Brazil, was the key to resolving the decades-long war between Ecuador and Peru; the 2004 treaty between the two nations explicitly used environmental conservation as a conflict-resolution strategy by establishing a jointly managed protected area between the two countries.

The Siachen Peace Park, while unlikely to bring peace to India and Pakistan single-handedly, may be a catalysing variable that not only hastens the peace-building process but also makes it more durable. Those of us, who have worked on this proposal for the past several years, will continue to move forward with our efforts; that is, to address all questions that may be raised by sceptics. For example, what would the role of the militaries be in the peace park? As absolute demilitarisation is unrealistic in this case, the project is considering encouraging the militaries to act as rangers and assist in managing the park, which would allay fears about security and allow the two armies to work together for a constructive purpose.

Another issue facing the project is delineating the park’s border, a task that would have to be undertaken in phases to develop trust between the countries. Visitor access, too, poses a problem: do tourists visiting the park need visas for both countries? More realistically, visitors from either India or Pakistan could be allowed to enter the peace park on their entry visas from either country — but not permitted to cross over the park’s boundary into the other country.

To begin the process, both countries must overcome their institutional inertia and sign an agreement in principle. In 2004, a unified grass-roots campaign, combined with a strategic push from influential groups, sought to usher in the 50th anniversary of the first ascent of K-2 (a mountain in the Karakoram Range that is the second-highest peak in the world) by pushing the effort forward. The Italian government, which facilitated this process, established a meteorological measurement site near K-2. The proposal was submitted to both Pakistani and Indian governments, and during his 2006 visit to Siachen, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stated that he hoped the area would some day become a “peace mountain”. Since then, the project has focused on using science as the conduit for peace-building, as does the Antarctic Treaty. In March 2008, Indian and Pakistani glaciologists met in Kathmandu for the first time and established a detailed plan for research partnerships that might ultimately reduce tensions and pave the way for a peace park.

The framework for moving forward in this is clearly evident and this is a pragmatic proposal, rather than an idealistic one. There have even been joint reports by Indian and Pakistani brigadier-generals as well as the retired Air Marshall of the Indian armed forces, K C Cariappa, on the strategic salience of such a common-sense solution. All that remains is leadership to move forward. With the Copenhagen Summit on climate change approaching, the prospects for using the Siachen Peace Park as a measure of conflict resolution in the name of science are even stronger. Since Indian forces are in control of the glacier itself, the initiative must come from them to move ahead with this effort. Mr Singh, you have it within your power to leave a lasting legacy and resolve this senseless dispute in the name of science and environmental conservation once and for all.

The writer is associate professor of environmental planning at the University of Vermont, US. www.saleemali.net

[RedBaron]

A thought-provoking article by Dr Ali, thanks for posting it, Fatman.

Sadly, on the eastern frontier, the Mumbai attacks have served the goal of the terrorists and military hawks on either side by stalling the peace process. However, Singh could still show some mark of statesmanship and move towards a resolution of the long-standing territorial disputes between the two countries.

While its true that Mumbai was a tragedy of epic proportions, not only for the victims but also for Indo-Pak relations, all is not lost. But there is no doubt the attack has thrown a spanner in the works of any peace deal on Kashmir.

PM Singh is a rarity in Indian polity: a man of impeccable integrity, not some run-of-the-mill politician. I believe him when he says he does not know whom to do business with. The power equation in Pakistan is in flux. Zardari is under pressure, Gilani claims he is the head of the govt when its apparent to everyone that he's not, Gen Kiyani obviously chafing re:Kerry/Lugar bill. How can PM Singh reach any agreement with this odd troika? Even PM Singh admits it was easier to deal with the dictator who architected the Kargil fiasco. I would be interested in Pakistani opinion on how they perceive the current power equation in Pakistan.

Kashmir is certainly an intractable problem because it can lead to a slippery slope for India’s myriad other sectarian conflicts. Providing some further measure of autonomy in Kashmir could further strengthen other separatist movements that are simmering in Assam and other parts of the country.

This is not true. Assam insurgency will not be influenced by events in Kashmir. The Assam/Naga/Naxalite insurgencies are as a result of years of government neglect, local corruption and outright abuse of powers - but not territorial disputes between states.

Since a comprehensive dispute settlement strategy has eluded both countries for 62 years, perhaps the best way to approach Kashmir is incrementally resolving some of the other territorial disputes. First on the list should be a resolution to the Siachen conflict.

My personal opinion is that the "irrelevant border" policy that PM Singh favors is the only realistic one, with the end-goal being the LOC ending up like the Swiss-Italy or Swiss-France border, namely, a border only on paper with free passage to Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris alike. This will obviously take a long time, years, perhaps decades to accomplish, if (and only if) peace is maintained elsewhere. This seems to be improbable given conditions on the ground today.

The Siachen Peace Park, while unlikely to bring peace to India and Pakistan single-handedly, may be a catalysing variable that not only hastens the peace-building process but also makes it more durable.
...
More realistically, visitors from either India or Pakistan could be allowed to enter the peace park on their entry visas from either country — but not permitted to cross over the park’s boundary into the other country.

This is a realistic workable idea worth pursuing. Intellectuals always see all sides of the argument, hence environmentalists, glaciologists, geologists on both sides can be the first people with "free passes" to the Siachen glacier.

In 2004, a unified grass-roots campaign, combined with a strategic push from influential groups, sought to usher in the 50th anniversary of the first ascent of K-2 (a mountain in the Karakoram Range that is the second-highest peak in the world) by pushing the effort forward. The Italian government, which facilitated this process, established a meteorological measurement site near K-2. The proposal was submitted to both Pakistani and Indian governments, and during his 2006 visit to Siachen, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stated that he hoped the area would some day become a “peace mountain”. Since then, the project has focused on using science as the conduit for peace-building, as does the Antarctic Treaty.

K2 is one heck of a mountain, I would love to be part of a peace delegation visiting it, it has a rugged beauty unsurpassed by any other Himalayan peak including Everest.

With the Copenhagen Summit on climate change approaching, the prospects for using the Siachen Peace Park as a measure of conflict resolution in the name of science are even stronger. Since Indian forces are in control of the glacier itself, the initiative must come from them to move ahead with this effort. Mr Singh, you have it within your power to leave a lasting legacy and resolve this senseless dispute in the name of science and environmental conservation once and for all.

I would suggest the following:
- GoP convicts and hangs perpetrators of the Mumbai massacre (LeT thugs including Lakhvi-chacha), removing Mumbai issue from the equation and giving something for Mr. Singh to work on
- Mr. Singh can then work with GoP to make the Siachen peace park a reality. Get the intellectuals and more importantly the young educated people involved on both sides. Get college students to mount a joint expedition to Siachen, dammit.
- The goodwill can then slowly be duplicated in the valley by first opening the borders to Kashmiris on both sides, intellectuals/students next, then civilians....

[fatman17]

"- GoP convicts and hangs perpetrators of the Mumbai massacre (LeT thugs including Lakhvi-chacha), removing Mumbai issue from the equation and giving something for Mr. Singh to work on"

i hope you believe in 'due process' - kasab is hopefully getting it in indian courts, otherwise he should have been 'hung' a long time ago!

[fatman17]

VIEW: Melting ice of Siachen Glacier —Waheed Hamid

War-specific developments are a death sentence for Himalayan glaciers. Blaming only global warming for rapid defrosting is a false impression being created deliberately by India with a view to covering up the serious and catastrophic environmental crime its army is committing

Glaciers are ancient rivers of compressed snow that creep through the landscape, shaping the planet’s surface. They are the earth’s largest freshwater reservoirs, collectively covering an area the size of South America. Most of the world’s glaciers are located around the poles. In the non-polar region, the Himalaya Mountains are the origin of many glaciers and important rivers of Asia. The range offers a variety of glaciers. It includes Siachen, Baltoro, Biafo, Nubra and Hispur Glaciers. But the most important is the Siachen Glacier, which is the largest glacier outside the polar regions. The Siachen Glacier is located in the eastern Karakoram range in the Himalaya Mountains at about 35°3’N 77°0’E, at an altitude of 15,000 feet, on the Line of Control between India and Pakistan. A portion of it is being controlled each by India and Pakistan. 70 km (43 mi) long, it is the longest glacier in the Karakorams. The glaciers are the main and the biggest source of fresh water in South Asia, particularly India and Pakistan. Therefore they are a lifeline for hundreds of millions of people of the area whose food security is dependent on Himalayan waters.

The Siachen Glacier’s melting ice is the main source of the Nubra River in Indian controlled Ladakh, which drains into the Shyok River. The Shyok in turn joins the Indus River. Thus the glacier is a major source of the Indus waters. The Indus Basin is the 12th largest basin in the world, ensuring food replenishment to millions of people. The geographic layout of the area is such that it slopes towards the south and southwest. Therefore speedy melting of the Siachen Glacier increases the chances of flooding the Indus Basin and causing destructive snow avalanches on both sides of Saltoro Ridge. If this happens, most of the routes used by world mountaineering expeditions, particularly originating or passing through Pakistan, would become unsafe.

As a matter of fact glaciers have been retreating worldwide since the end of the Little Ice Age (around 1850), but in recent decades glaciers have begun melting at rates that cannot be explained by historical trends. Since the early 1960s, mountain glaciers worldwide have experienced an estimated net loss of over 4,000 cubic kilometres of water. However, among the legendary peaks of K2 and Nanga Parbat, glaciers with a penthouse view of the world are rather growing. It is the Siachen Glacier only which is melting and that too on the eastern side of the Saltoro Ridge (presently occupied by the Indian army), the retreat of which has been observed as about 110 meters a year. It is the fastest melting rate of any glacier in the world. Reports also indicate that a large lake has formed in the middle of the Siachen Glacier presently occupied by the Indian army.

It seems very strange that the glacier is defrosting fast on one side and at the same time growing on the other side. It really raises a question why global warming is not affecting the Himalayan glaciers uniformly? Is it global warming or something different that is causing rapid melting, thereby shrinking the glacier? In the recent past, expert reports suggested another probable cause: the erection of artificial infrastructure and human activity in the area as it has been an active battlefield for the last two decades or so. The surfacing of a lake at a location which is the centre of military activity of the Indian army further strengthens such speculations. It indicates one more thing that glaciers on the western side bear thin infrastructure and human activity. In any case, global warming has less to do with deicing of the Siachen Glacier. It is also evident from a statement of the Indian environment minister who admitted that there was no scientific proof to support the idea that the melting of the Himalayan glaciers was being caused by global warming. A report in the August 10, 2009 issue of Current Science journal of India said that the “Siachen Glacier has not been affected by the rise in global temperatures.” Jammu University scientists have also claimed that the “Himalayan glaciers, including the world’s highest battlefield Siachen, are melting not because of global warming.” The prevailing evidence therefore points towards extraordinary activity of the Indian army, the infrastructure being established and huge explosive storages on the eastern side of the Saltoro Ridge.

The effects of thawing of glaciers and particularly Siachen Glacier, being the largest in the region, are going to be devastating. However, there exists little awareness among the world community regarding the causes of this phenomenon. After clarifications of scientific experts and Indian officials themselves, it leaves not even an iota of doubt that the rapid shrinkage of the Siachen Glacier is due to chemical and explosive storage and cutting of glacial ice by the Indian army and not by global warming.

The de-icing of glaciers is not only hazardous for the food security of the region, particularly for the Indus Basin area, it is equally disadvantageous to the world’s mountaineering expeditions that commence their journey from this area. The area contains the highest peaks of the world like K2 and Nanga Parbat and remains attractive to world hikers. Ensuring a pollution-free and safe environment is the joint responsibility of all. It must be appreciated that war-specific developments are a death sentence for Himalayan glaciers. Blaming only global warming for rapid defrosting is a false impression being created deliberately by India with a view to covering up the serious and catastrophic environmental crime its army is committing. It is therefore a moral obligation of the world community and United Nations to take notice of the Indian army’s activities in Siachen and ensure that the Himalayan glaciers are not disturbed. Their deterioration would not only be detrimental to food safety, it would also be catastrophic to global environmental efforts.

The writer is a freelance columnist

[AVIAN]

Originally Posted by fatman17

VIEW: Melting ice of Siachen Glacier —Waheed Hamid

War-specific developments are a death sentence for Himalayan glaciers. Blaming only global warming for rapid defrosting is a false impression being created deliberately by India with a view to covering up the serious and catastrophic environmental crime its army is committing

Glaciers are ancient rivers of compressed snow that creep through the landscape, shaping the planet’s surface. They are the earth’s largest freshwater reservoirs, collectively covering an area the size of South America. Most of the world’s glaciers are located around the poles. In the non-polar region, the Himalaya Mountains are the origin of many glaciers and important rivers of Asia. The range offers a variety of glaciers. It includes Siachen, Baltoro, Biafo, Nubra and Hispur Glaciers. But the most important is the Siachen Glacier, which is the largest glacier outside the polar regions. The Siachen Glacier is located in the eastern Karakoram range in the Himalaya Mountains at about 35°3’N 77°0’E, at an altitude of 15,000 feet, on the Line of Control between India and Pakistan. A portion of it is being controlled each by India and Pakistan. 70 km (43 mi) long, it is the longest glacier in the Karakorams. The glaciers are the main and the biggest source of fresh water in South Asia, particularly India and Pakistan. Therefore they are a lifeline for hundreds of millions of people of the area whose food security is dependent on Himalayan waters.

The Siachen Glacier’s melting ice is the main source of the Nubra River in Indian controlled Ladakh, which drains into the Shyok River. The Shyok in turn joins the Indus River. Thus the glacier is a major source of the Indus waters. The Indus Basin is the 12th largest basin in the world, ensuring food replenishment to millions of people. The geographic layout of the area is such that it slopes towards the south and southwest. Therefore speedy melting of the Siachen Glacier increases the chances of flooding the Indus Basin and causing destructive snow avalanches on both sides of Saltoro Ridge. If this happens, most of the routes used by world mountaineering expeditions, particularly originating or passing through Pakistan, would become unsafe.

As a matter of fact glaciers have been retreating worldwide since the end of the Little Ice Age (around 1850), but in recent decades glaciers have begun melting at rates that cannot be explained by historical trends. Since the early 1960s, mountain glaciers worldwide have experienced an estimated net loss of over 4,000 cubic kilometres of water. However, among the legendary peaks of K2 and Nanga Parbat, glaciers with a penthouse view of the world are rather growing. It is the Siachen Glacier only which is melting and that too on the eastern side of the Saltoro Ridge (presently occupied by the Indian army), the retreat of which has been observed as about 110 meters a year. It is the fastest melting rate of any glacier in the world. Reports also indicate that a large lake has formed in the middle of the Siachen Glacier presently occupied by the Indian army.

It seems very strange that the glacier is defrosting fast on one side and at the same time growing on the other side. It really raises a question why global warming is not affecting the Himalayan glaciers uniformly? Is it global warming or something different that is causing rapid melting, thereby shrinking the glacier? In the recent past, expert reports suggested another probable cause: the erection of artificial infrastructure and human activity in the area as it has been an active battlefield for the last two decades or so. The surfacing of a lake at a location which is the centre of military activity of the Indian army further strengthens such speculations. It indicates one more thing that glaciers on the western side bear thin infrastructure and human activity. In any case, global warming has less to do with deicing of the Siachen Glacier. It is also evident from a statement of the Indian environment minister who admitted that there was no scientific proof to support the idea that the melting of the Himalayan glaciers was being caused by global warming. A report in the August 10, 2009 issue of Current Science journal of India said that the “Siachen Glacier has not been affected by the rise in global temperatures.” Jammu University scientists have also claimed that the “Himalayan glaciers, including the world’s highest battlefield Siachen, are melting not because of global warming.” The prevailing evidence therefore points towards extraordinary activity of the Indian army, the infrastructure being established and huge explosive storages on the eastern side of the Saltoro Ridge.

The effects of thawing of glaciers and particularly Siachen Glacier, being the largest in the region, are going to be devastating. However, there exists little awareness among the world community regarding the causes of this phenomenon. After clarifications of scientific experts and Indian officials themselves, it leaves not even an iota of doubt that the rapid shrinkage of the Siachen Glacier is due to chemical and explosive storage and cutting of glacial ice by the Indian army and not by global warming.

The de-icing of glaciers is not only hazardous for the food security of the region, particularly for the Indus Basin area, it is equally disadvantageous to the world’s mountaineering expeditions that commence their journey from this area. The area contains the highest peaks of the world like K2 and Nanga Parbat and remains attractive to world hikers. Ensuring a pollution-free and safe environment is the joint responsibility of all. It must be appreciated that war-specific developments are a death sentence for Himalayan glaciers. Blaming only global warming for rapid defrosting is a false impression being created deliberately by India with a view to covering up the serious and catastrophic environmental crime its army is committing. It is therefore a moral obligation of the world community and United Nations to take notice of the Indian army’s activities in Siachen and ensure that the Himalayan glaciers are not disturbed. Their deterioration would not only be detrimental to food safety, it would also be catastrophic to global environmental efforts.

The writer is a freelance columnist

A clear case of accusing Indian Army for ruins happenings in Himalyan glacier unnecessarily. How the hell the presence of some thousand troop will going to make glacier melt rapidly. On the top of that, writer isn't even giving any insightful input which will make presence of IA unsustainable for such glaciers, all writer has done is to raise unnecessary alarm about rivers.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Policy should be simple with Indians - during these testing times

Any false move and nukes will fly - so its suggested they stay out of it altogether -

While we focus to eliminate Talibans

[vnomad]

Originally Posted by AZADPAKISTAN2009

Policy should be simple with Indians - during these testing times

Any false move and nukes will fly - so its suggested they stay out of it altogether -

While we focus to eliminate Talibans

The point of the concept behind Mutually Assured Destruction or MAD is that launching a nuclear attack your adversary is akin to nuking yourself.

So in effect what you're saying is that unless India 'behaves', you'll nuke yourself while also nuking India in the process.

[ejaz007]

Avalanche kills 8 soldiers in Siachen glacier
Updated at: 2310 PST, Tuesday, February 09, 2010


SIACHEN: Eight soldiers embraced martyrdom when an avalanche hit a military camp at Siachin glacier.

According to sources, the soldiers were discharging their duties according to the schedule when an avalanche struck a military post at Bevan sector.

The bodies of the martyred soldiers were pulled out of the avalanche.

They will be laid to rest in their respective areas with complete military honor.

Avalanche kills 8 soldiers in Siachen glacier

[karan.1970]

Originally Posted by ejaz007

Avalanche kills 8 soldiers in Siachen glacier
Updated at: 2310 PST, Tuesday, February 09, 2010


SIACHEN: Eight soldiers embraced martyrdom when an avalanche hit a military camp at Siachin glacier.

According to sources, the soldiers were discharging their duties according to the schedule when an avalanche struck a military post at Bevan sector.

The bodies of the martyred soldiers were pulled out of the avalanche.

They will be laid to rest in their respective areas with complete military honor.

Avalanche kills 8 soldiers in Siachen glacier

May they rest in peace...

[rpraveenkum]

RIP for the soldiers

[air marshal]

Inna lillah he wa Inna Elehe Rajioon.

[Vassnti]

Originally Posted by fatman17

Let’s start with Siachen

Tuesday, December 01, 2009

Dr Saleem H Ali

This is an uninhabited region which, military leaders on both sides agree, has little military importance and yet soldiers are dying of hypothermia at elevations exceeding 18,000 feet above sea level.

Hopefully people from both India and Pakistan can bring pressure on the politicians sitting in their nice warm offices to act.

[Trichy]

Originally Posted by AZADPAKISTAN2009

Policy should be simple with Indians - during these testing times

Any false move and nukes will fly - so its suggested they stay out of it altogether -

While we focus to eliminate Talibans

hey nukes or not chocolates you open and put on others mouth, thats the end of that nation by G5...you only tell that we have nukes and we drop over you, but nothing happens in coming years even a conflict taken place between INDIA & PAKISTAN.