JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter

[nightrider_saulat]

Originally Posted by greatsequence

I dont understand. Chief is comparing jf-17 with f-16 block 50 and typhoon. If so then upgrading f-16 and buying j-10 does not make any sense or is he just fooling the public. Can someone please clarify.

dude JF-17 has the potential to make itself the most high-tech 4.5th generation fighter along with its upcoming upgrades

[greatsequence]

That is what I am saying if jf-17 is so good what is the point of wasting so much money on f-16 upgrades and J-10.

[Righteous_Fire]

Originally Posted by greatsequence

That is what I am saying if jf-17 is so good what is the point of wasting so much money on f-16 upgrades and J-10.

For obvious reasons

JF-17 is a 4th Generation Fighter
J-10 is a 4.5 Generation Fighter

as for the F-16s, Block 52s are good fighters and many countries including their maker is using them into the next decade or more with the help of upgrades.

[Developereo]

With the US phasing out its old F16s, is there any chance they can flood the market with cheap, used F16s?

Would it affect the market for JF-17?

[LiberalPakistani]

Originally Posted by Developereo

With the US phasing out its old F16s, is there any chance they can flood the market with cheap, used F16s?

Would it affect the market for JF-17?

US deliveries are unreliable its better we depend on JF-17 to fullfil our needs because we paid them last time for 112 F-16's only 46 were delivered til now i don't see any changes in US foreign policies Obama was a just a all drama.US is phasing out old F-16s those are A/B's they are not phasing out F-16C's anytime soon.

[mean_bird]

Originally Posted by greatsequence

That is what I am saying if jf-17 is so good what is the point of wasting so much money on f-16 upgrades and J-10.

They would be even better.

Both the latest F-16s and J-10 have more range and more weapons capacity as well as higher powerplant that could support bigger equipments.

I think you are mistaking technologies with capabilities. Also, as I said the statement was meant 'for the general public with little or no knowledge of planes'. You cannot explain to them in exact terms what difference there is as no one will understand. This is a dedicated defence forum and we expect the members to know a thing or two about planes so we can talk into details.

[Developereo]

Originally Posted by LiberalPakistani

US deliveries are unreliable its better we depend on JF-17 to fullfil our needs because we paid them last time for 112 F-16's only 46 were delivered til now i don't see any changes in US foreign policies Obama was a just a all drama.US is phasing out old F-16s those are A/B's they are not phasing out F-16C's anytime soon.

No, I was referring to our export market for JF-17.
We want to sell JF-17 to third world countries, but if they can buy used USAF F16s at firesale prices, would they go for JF-17?

[Machoman]

Sorry to say it will sound little odd here, but why some of Pakistanis are expecting J-17 is the best fighter aircraft in the world. I mean come on guys. This is a new plane we did not even test that in wars or battle field. Why some of the members here so carried away with J-17. I really hate when people start comparing j-17 with f-16 and SU 30. Dude those are the plane which has been proven their capabilities in wars. Hum nay ek plane kiya bana liya haumaray kadam zameen par he nahi a rahay. Please don’t take me wrong but for me this is little funny.

[nightrider_saulat]

Originally Posted by greatsequence

That is what I am saying if jf-17 is so good what is the point of wasting so much money on f-16 upgrades and J-10.

j-10 has the state of the art vertical climb ability
which lacks both in jf-17 and f-16 which nowadays very important in dogfight missions
and plus j-10 can perform deep strike penetration operations well better than f-16 and jf-17 it is also to noted that j-10 coming n paf after 5 years might have superior AESA radar within them

[araz]

Originally Posted by nightrider_saulat

j-10 has the state of the art vertical climb ability
which lacks both in jf-17 and f-16 which nowadays very important in dogfight missions
and plus j-10 can perform deep strike penetration operations well better than f-16 and jf-17 it is also to noted that j-10 coming n paf after 5 years might have superior AESA radar within them

Nightrider
You might want to review your post. I am nonmilitary but there is nothing state ofthe art vertical climb ability. With minimal fuel and no ordinance any plane can do that.
Your second paragraph is unsubstantiated and needs proof which you cant provide as no one knows what the true capabilities of J10 are. Thirdly how do you know that China is going ot supply J10B to you and not insist that you buy J10?
Jingoism aside, we need to be realistic in our expectations of our friends. They also have priorities which they will put in front of pakistans interests.
Araz

[hasnain0099]

A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy
Pakistan has been working hard to find a suitable, non-Chinese radar and missile package for its newly completed JF-17 Thunder fighter jet, co-produced with China. In August of last year, my sources had reported that the French were proving to be troublesome in negotiations and that South Africa was emerging as a likely supplier for a package. Last week however, the French government finally authorized its defense industry to sell the Thales RC-400 radar and MBDA’s Mica Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (MRAAM) to Pakistan

The French change of heart can likely be attributed to the new Sarkozy government in Paris and a recent Pakistani decision to purchase German submarines over French ones. Whatever the reason, this authorization could result in a significant boost for both the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and France’s market position in Pakistan.

A Lethal Combination
By allowing Thales and MDBA to compete in Pakistan’s open tender for a radar/missile package for the JF-17, the French have significantly raised the bar for the plane as well as for competitor bids.

The RC-400 is an airborne radar that can detect, track, and fire upon multiple targets at long ranges simultaneously. It employs the use of electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM - essentially, anti-jamming) and other advanced features such as SAR. The radar is more capable than the standard Chinese-made avionics that will be equipping the first production batch of JF-17’s.

The Mica is a medium range missile that has a range of approximately 60 km (~ 40 miles) meaning it’s capable of engaging targets beyond visual range (BVR). It includes advanced features such as thrust vectoring (TVC) allowing it to make drastic changes in direction at immense speeds.

To some of you, this may just be a long list of acronyms and technical jargon. In sum, it essentially translates into the Thunder becoming a true multi-role fighter with the capability to target land, air and sea targets in all conditions, day or night, at stand-off ranges.

It also forces other major suppliers who are or are considering participation in the open tender - such as Raytheon (US), Denel (South Africa), and FIAR (Italy) - to provide comparable packages at competitive prices. This will help Pakistan as it engages in commercial negotiations over the cost of a French package.

France’s Foothold
France and Pakistan have historically had very strong military ties. France has often supplied Pakistan with advanced weaponry when others wouldn’t. Today, Pakistan operates the largest fleet of French-made Mirage fighter aircraft outside of France, and to date, all of Pakistan’s submarines have been of French origin.

Recently however, defense ties between the two have been strained. Starting in 1998, with Pakistan’s nuclear tests, the French briefly withheld delivery of the first of three advanced Agosta 90B submarines Pakistan had purchased under transfer of technology (ToT) terms. Shortly thereafter, 11 French engineers working on the remaining Agosta’s were killed in a bombing of the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, putting the program’s future in doubt for a short while.

After 9/11, Pakistan once again began relying heavily on US supplied weaponry while the French attempted to woo the Indians in the hopes of scoring large deals. In the process, the French alienated Pakistan and lost the loyalty of a longtime buyer. This was exhibited this past September when Pakistan opted to purchase German-made U-214 submarines over the French Marlin, despite France having authorized its sale.

By granting Pakistan access to an advanced radar and MRAAM, France is trying to regain lost footing in the Pakistani market. Ever the astute business people, the French are also undoubtedly eyeing the JF-17’s export potential, though many of the plane’s export targets will likely opt for an all-Chinese package.

Caveat Emptor
The French have a propensity to sell weaponry to Pakistan and then sell similar or better weapons to India (or vice versa), fuelling the existing arms races and their revenues. The most recent example of which was when after having agreed to supply Pakistan with the Agosta 90B submarine, they sold the newer Scorpene submarine to India. The very same could happen with the RC-400 radar and Mica MRAAM if a deal comes to fruition.

However, this sort of risk is inherent in any defense deal when there are two rivals engaged in an arms race. It doesn’t change the fact that even at a premium this package is far and away Pakistan’s best available option for the JF-17.

The Big Picture
The JF-17 is meant to be Pakistan’s unsanctionable, low-cost mainstay fighter, replacing aging Mirages and F-7’s (Chinese MiG-21’s) that constitute the bulk of the PAF fleet. With production expected to total 250, the JF-17 will form the medium component of the PAF’s mix of medium and high technology aircraft; the high component formed by the F-16 and the Chinese J-10 (Pakistani designation: FC-20).

The JF-17 will mark a quantum leap for the PAF in light of the aircraft it will be replacing. With the exception of a handful of upgraded Mirages, none of the planes in Pakistan’s current fleet have BVR capability; not even US-supplied F-16’s which are awaiting upgrade. The lack of BVR capability places Pakistan at a severe disadvantage vis-à-vis India whose air force operates multiple aircraft types that are BVR capable.

This will all change with the JF-17 which will have BVR capability and many other features currently unavailable on Pakistan’s Mirages and F-7’s. Not including its flight range and payload, the JF-17 is considered to be on par with if not superior in some aspects (e.g. avionics, thrust-to-weight ratio, etc.) to earlier versions of the F-16. In essence, the PAF will be replacing the bulk of its entire fleet with F-16-like planes, all equipped with BVR.

The JF-17’s induction, coupled with the purchase of brand new F-16’s and force multipliers such as Swedish and American Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) systems, marks a return to quality for the PAF, which in recent years had begun to rely on quantity having been crippled by sanctions. Though adopting all these new systems and developing new tactics will take time, it will give the PAF the confidence it needs to take on a much larger Indian Air Force (IAF).

For the global community, a confident and capable conventional military in Pakistan is vital - it raises Pakistan’s threshold for the use of nuclear weapons if ever a conflict were to break out between India and Pakistan.

Let’s hope we never have to test that threshold.

[BATMAN]

Thirdly how do you know that China is going ot supply J10B to you and not insist that you buy J10?

When chinese will be manufacturing J-10B than we also get J-10B.
By exporting defence equipmet national interest is very well served so there is no reason to be pesimistic, specially when some understanding exisits among both states.

I really hate when people start comparing j-17 with f-16 and SU 30.

Since when are you following JF-17 discussions?
JF-17 has all the characters of world's top class fighters, Clipped delta wings, LERX, DSI, HUD, etc.
F-16 is a great plane and it would not be wrong if i may say that JF-17 have surpassed this benchmark.
We have F-16 and we are in better position to compare its performance with F_17 as practical as it could be.
SU30 was humiliated by F-16 in recent red flag excercises and this should be enough practical example.

[Tempest II]

Originally Posted by hasnain0099

A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy
Pakistan has been working hard to find a suitable, non-Chinese radar and missile package for its newly completed JF-17 Thunder fighter jet, co-produced with China. In August of last year, my sources had reported that the French were proving to be troublesome in negotiations and that South Africa was emerging as a likely supplier for a package.

What airborne fire control radar does South Africa make?

[ANTIBODY]

Originally Posted by hasnain0099

A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy
Pakistan has been working hard to find a suitable, non-Chinese radar and missile package for its newly completed JF-17 Thunder fighter .....
.................
Let’s hope we never have to test that threshold.

the topic is of 2007
A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy
A Boost for the PAF and French Relevancy | The Insider Brief





south african involvement in missilie programme

Advanced Helmet Systems: The South African “Archer” helmet mounted display (top) uses light emitting diodes to track pilot head position in order to target weapons. The Cigong Group helmet sight seen a the 2004 Zhuhai show used a similar head tracking system. Any potential South African help with new PLA AAMs likely included the sale of advanced helmet display technology. Source: Denel and RD Fisher
..in 2004 Yihong Chang reported on PLA interest in purchasing the 5th generation Denel A-Darter AAM.[7] The data revealed on January 4 indicated that development of the PL-10 started in 2004, which might track very well with the reported deepening of South African-PLA cooperation. The few clear images of the PL-ASR/PL-10 show a near 95 percent similarity with the Denel A-Darter AAM. The main differences are in the rear fin shape and configuration, but it is a relatively minor difference. So it is possible to speculate that the PL-10 may very well have a performance similar to or better than the A-Darter, which would include use of advanced imaging infrared guidance and a maximum range of 20km or better. The January 4 revelation indicates the seeker has a 90-degree off-bore-sight capability (180 degree field of view). It also has a lock-on-after-launch capability, meaning it can be launched from a high off-bore-sight position and acquires the target, usually accomplished with the aid of a helmet sight or IRST.
Helmet Mounted Display


Non-Chinese weapons for jf17

R-Darter BVR-AAM (proposed at IDEAS 2006, Karachi, Pakistan)
A-Darter WVR-AAM (also proposed at IDEAS 2006)
T-Darter BVR-AAM (also proposed at IDEAS 2006)
IRIS-T WVR-AAM (also proposed at IDEAS 2006)
AIM-9L/P Sidewinder WVR-AAM
AIM-7F Sparrow BVR-AAM
AIM-120C-5 BVR-AAM
Magic-II - R550 Magic
MBDA MICA
Aspide
BLU-107 Durandal
DPGM (Precision Guided Bomb)
Raptor-I precision-guided long-range glide bomb (60km)
Raptor II precision-guided long-range glide bomb (120km)
Anti-ship missile such as Exocet and Harpoon missile.

JF-17 Thunder (FC-1 Fierce Dragon) Multirole Fighter | AVIATION FANS

pakistani versions of some missiles /weapons for jf17

H-4, H-2 BVR missiles

Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," they said, adding
the missiles were modified version of the South African T-Darter BVR missiles.
PAF officials said that the H-4 missiles which was an Infra-Red Device and comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and python 4 missiles of the IAF would be fitted on to the PAF's mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006

The PAF claims to have H-2 BVR missiles, which could hit targets up to 60 km.

Pakistani copy of R Darter... has been modified extensively. It is more agile, improved manoeuvrability, an superior seeker and far more lethal.Pakistan has acquired several members of the Denel Darter family with TOT. These may include the "Raptors as well. They are not only being tweaked to Pak specification but inducted into PAF. They include both BVRAAM and PGMs.
Regarding the SA origined PAF missiles, they hare already modified, tested and integrated . I am not aware of SD-10s or Mica been inducted yet. Whether they are being tested I do not know. PAF has tested several missiles and conducted missile separation tests in March, so we should be learning more about the details soon, about the identity and results for these missiles. Please remember that no Air Force is equipped with just one kind of missiles but several and they are used based on what the mission calls for. So, i am quite sure that Darters will be a part of JF-17 inventory.

..credits sir pshamim


Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles - Pakistan - World - NEWS - The Times of India
Pak Air Force inducts BVR missiles
BVR capabilities of PAF
AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES: Command of the air
JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter
H2 And H4 are AAM Or AGM?

Hafr-1 and 2 (Pakistan), Bombs - Unguided

Type
Penetration bomb.

Development
The Hafr-1 is an anti-runway weapon manufactured and offered for export by the Air Weapons Complex of Pakistan. Development details of the bomb are absent, but the weapon is almost identical in appearance to the French-designed Durandal (now an MBDA product). It is not known if the Hafr is a licensed design or an unauthorised copy. It is available for use on the Pakistan Air Force's F-16, Mirage III, Mirage V and PAC/Chengdu JF-17 Thunder aircraft. The appearance of a second Durandal-type weapon in Chinese service points to a co-operation between Pakistan and China on such a project. The AWC now advertises a version of the weapon called Hafr-2 but it is unclear what differences, if any, there are between this version and Hafr 1. In terms of basic performance the two seem to be identical.
Hafr-1 and 2 (Pakistan) - Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
User:Hcberkowitz/Sandbox-AirCampaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China), Airborne radar systems

Type
Airborne Fire Control Radar (FCR).

Description
The KLJ-7 Fire Control Radar (FCR), also referred to as Type 1478, employs a mechanically-scanned, phased-array antenna and is the main radar set for the Chengdu Aircraft Industries/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. A derivative of the KLJ-7, and likely employing a larger diameter array, the KLJ-10/J-10A, is believed to have been installed in the Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft.In terms of development, the J-7 is reportedly similar in basic design to Phazotron N010 Zhuk family of radars; both Phazotron NIIR and rival radar house NIIP have worked closely in the past with Chinese radar design bureaux and provided technical assistance as well as operational models of Russia-made radar sets that were used as benchmarks in the process of Chinese firms developing their own designs. Nanjing have also reportedly drawn on the Galileo Avionica/Finmeccanica Grifo and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Elta-2032 in developing their own radar designs. While the basic configuration of the J-7 may be similar to that of the Zhuk family, Nanjing utilises Chinese-made electronic components, multi-layered circuit boards, etc.The J-7 has multiple modes, both Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance and a robust anti-jamming capability, according to Chinese sources. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in Track-While-Scan (TWS) mode and can engage two targets simultaneously at BVR. The detection range for targets with an radar-cross section of up to 3 square metres is 75 km look-up, or 35 km in look-down mode.
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics

[nightrider_saulat]

Originally Posted by araz

Nightrider
You might want to review your post. I am nonmilitary but there is nothing state ofthe art vertical climb ability. With minimal fuel and no ordinance any plane can do that.
Your second paragraph is unsubstantiated and needs proof which you cant provide as no one knows what the true capabilities of J10 are. Thirdly how do you know that China is going ot supply J10B to you and not insist that you buy J10?
Jingoism aside, we need to be realistic in our expectations of our friends. They also have priorities which they will put in front of pakistans interests.
Araz

i am sorry
i mean to say state of the art aircraft design for vertical climb
and it is rumored that paf will get j-10 instead of j-10b
that is something which i have heared many times in this forum