France to provide combat copters

[jnd3x0]

it very good step by PA ..i think....rival can't handel it neatly....

[Skywalker]

How come france suddenly found a new love for Pakistan.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by sancho

Can you explain why you believe the Tiger is the second best?
It has only a service ceiling of 4000m, can only carry 8 anti tank missiles, the Rooivalk and the Viper for example have a ceiling of more than 6000m and can carry up to 16 anti tank missiles.
Tiger is pretty comparable to PAs cobras, or HALs LCH and if you already have numbers of light attack helicopters, wouldn't it make more sense to add some heavy once like Apache, Viper, or Rooivalk?
That's exactly the same reason why I think the Tiger has no chance in the IAF attack helicopter competition. Why should we pay $50 million for an helicopter that can do hardly the same job that our indigenous can? Apache is way more capable and costs the same and we also have the option of Mi 28 and Ka 52.
The best choice for PA would be Viper, or Apache, because of commonality of weapons and logistics. But if you want to get rid of US arms, I would go for Rooivalk and replace the Cobras later with WZ 10.

1. Why would it matter if an antitank/combat helicopter has a service ceiling of 'just' 4km rather than 6km: its targets are on the ground, not in the air.

2. There appear to be 2, maybe even 3 classes of attack helicopter being compared as if they are somehow equal. Hardly surprising, the heavier attack choppers are capable of carrying more ordnance.

LIGHT COMBAT HELI

Eurocopter Panther/Z-9W
Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)

A-129 Mongoose/Mangusta / T-129
Empty weight: 2,530 kg (5,575 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 4,600 kg (10,140 lb)

HAL LCH
Empty weight: 2550 kg (5621 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 5,500 kg (12125 lb)

AH-1G Huey Cobra
Empty weight: 6,073 lb (2,754 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 9,500 lb (4,309 kg)

AH-1F Modernized Cobra
Empty weight: 6,600 lb (2,993 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 10,000 lb (4,500 kg)

AH-1J SeaCobra
Empty weight: 6,595 lb (2,998 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 9,979 lb (4,525 kg)

Tiger HAP
Empty weight: 3,060 kg (6,750 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 6,000 kg (13,000 lb)

RAH-66 Comanche (cancelled)
Empty weight: 8,690 lb (3,942 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 17,175 lb (7,790 kg)

MEDIUM COMBAT HELI

AH-1W SuperCobra
Empty weight: 10,920 lb (4,953 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 14,750 lb (6,690 kg)

Apache
Empty weight: 11,387 lb (5,165 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 23,000 lb (10,433 kg)

Rooivalk
Empty weight: 5,190 kg (11,441 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 8,750 kg (19,290 lb)

WZ-10
Empty weight: 5540 kg [4] (lb)
Max takeoff weight: 7000 kg (lb)

Viper
Empty weight: 12,300 lb (5,580 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 18,500 lb (8,390 kg)

HEAVY COMBAT HELICOPTER

Mi-28
Empty: 7,890 kg (17,394 lb)
Maximum takeoff: 12,100 kg (26,700 lb)

Ka-50/52
Empty weight: 7,800 kg (17,200 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 10,800 kg (23,810 lb)

Mi-24 / Mi-25 / Mi-35 (also capable of carrying personnel for assault)
Empty weight: 8,500 kg (18,740 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,000 kg (26,500 lb)

3. Number of Units & Unit cost

LIGHT COMBAT HELI

Eurocopter Panther/Z-9W
Eurocopter Panther 40+, unit cost >$10m
Z-9 Number built 200+, cost unknown

A-129 Mongoose/Mangusta / T-129
Number built 60
Unit cost US$ 43 million (A129I),US$ 63 million (T129)

HAL LCH
Status Development > 0 units produced, cost unknown

AH-1F Cobra
Number built 1,116
Unit cost US$11.3 million (1995) (AH-1 HueyCobra)

Tiger
Unit cost $ 35-48 million. The system cost (helicopter, armament, support) depends on number and version:
Tiger HAP $35–39 million USD
Tiger ARH $36 million USD
Tiger HAD $44–48 million USD
Tiger UHT $38–43 million USD

RAH-66 Comanche (cancelled)
Number built: 2
Unit cost: US$13 million (approx) in 1995

AH-1W SuperCobra
Number built 1,271+
Unit replacement cost AH-1W: US$10.7 million

Apache
Number built 1,048 as of 2000[2]
Unit cost US$18 million (1996)
In 1986, the incremental or flyaway cost for the AH-64A was US$7.03 million. In 1986, the average unit cost was approximately US$13.9 million based on total costs.
Apache Longbow $48–52 million USD
Greece: Gross unit cost (including weapons and support) for the AH-64D of $56.25 million

Rooivalk
Number built 12
Unit cost Est. $40 million
No longer marketed: On 17 May 2007, Denel group CEO Shaun Liebenberg announced a decision to cease development and funding for the Rooivalk following its failure to win the Turkish attack helicopter tender against the Agusta A129 Mangusta.

WZ-10
?units (A small number of prototypes have been undergoing test and evaluation)
?unit cost
NB: Up to 8 ATGM!

Viper
Status: In development

HEAVY COMBAT HELI

Mi-28
Units: 47+
Russia: 43 in service (325 ordered)
Venezuela: 4 delivered 2009
Unit cost € 12 Milion Euros

Ka-50/52
Number built
Ka-50: 16 as of 2006[1]
Ka-52: 10 as of 2006[2]
Unit cost 484 million rubles (approx. $15 million) as of May 2009

Mi-24 / Mi-25 / Mi-35 (also capable of carrying personnel for assault)
Number built 2000 (estimated)

4. Ceilings

RAH-66 Comanche
Service ceiling: 14,980 ft (4,566 m) < aha!

Mi-24
Service ceiling: 4,500 m (14,750 ft)

AH-1G HueyCobra
Service ceiling: 11,400 ft (3,475 m)
AH-1F Modernized Cobra
Service ceiling: 12,200 ft (3,720 m)
AH-1W SuperCobra
Ceiling: 18,700 feet (5703.5 meters) in basic combat attack configuration (in practise limited to 10,000 feet [3050 meters] by oxygen requirements)
Viper
Service ceiling: 20,000+ ft (6,100+ m)

i.e. Could have to do not so much with airframe capability but rather with presence or absense of oxygenation system

(all data from wikipedia)

[arsalanaslam123]

Originally Posted by Skywalker

How come france suddenly found a new love for Pakistan.

the love of france for our sweet Mr.Zardari is quite an old issue!

anyway on a serious note it is perhaps a case of lobbing, forcing us to go for more french equipment, the components for JF17 (radar, weapons and perhaps an engine) are perhaps going to come from french! offering us with the latest helicopter they may try to pursue osto go for there subs instead of the german ones! i have not yet made a detailed comparison of german and french subs that may be offered but still i gues the german deal is worth a go and should not me cancled! perhaps if we can arrange for some budget an additional order of wo french subs, may even be the agosta of which we already have the experience, will be a good choice as even with the german boats we will still two or three more subs to get a strong fleet!

regards!

[SSGPA1]

Originally Posted by Growler

your point is vaild but i hate the unite costs because i can tell its coming straight from wikipedia which is not accurate... ..

My source was the following link:

Eurocopter Tiger

I still think that WZ-10 should be the choice if not then we should look into the Turkish helis.

[TOPGUN]

Is it conform that we are gona buy these birds?

[sancho]

Originally Posted by Penguin

1. Why would it matter if an antitank/combat helicopter has a service ceiling of 'just' 4km rather than 6km: its targets are on the ground, not in the air.

Because they are not only ment for anti tank missions, I guess Cobras are in action against Talban in Swat too right? They will be deployed also against infantry other armoured vehicle and in our regions with high altitudes the ceiling matters.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by sancho

Can you explain why you believe the Tiger is the second best?
It has only a service ceiling of 4000m, can only carry 8 anti tank missiles, the Rooivalk and the Viper for example have a ceiling of more than 6000m and can carry up to 16 anti tank missiles.
Tiger is pretty comparable to PAs cobras, or HALs LCH and if you already have numbers of light attack helicopters, wouldn't it make more sense to add some heavy once like Apache, Viper, or Rooivalk?
That's exactly the same reason why I think the Tiger has no chance in the IAF attack helicopter competition. Why should we pay $50 million for an helicopter that can do hardly the same job that our indigenous can? Apache is way more capable and costs the same and we also have the option of Mi 28 and Ka 52.
The best choice for PA would be Viper, or Apache, because of commonality of weapons and logistics. But if you want to get rid of US arms, I would go for Rooivalk and replace the Cobras later with WZ 10.

seriously their is no need to turn physco with your blind hate towards pakistan, and lol indians never stop amusing me with their brilliant state of mind. did you even get the term "LCH"? do you even know what it stands for?? LIGHT COMBAT HELICOPTER! btw its going to be a fun battle field for MANPADS.. typical indian that you are.. you probably skimmed along wikipeedia and thought you have become a military general analyst.. typical BR boy..
and lol if speed, weight, ceiling, storage is your criteria of judging any military air crafts then i am sorry to say but that will be nothing but a idiocy of yourself.. Tiger can chew 10 T-90s any day any time and walk away unhurt any time..

[arsalanaslam123]

dont you wory sancho, the your LCH rules, just because it is yours! and the indians!!! they develop the best system in the world, we all have the examples of Arjun, LCA and there missile technology! thumbs up to you people!

by the way if pakistan is going for a heavy helicopter, it will be very easy for you to degrade it , you will just have to say that your LCH have grown up and become a Heavy Combat Helicopter or the HCH as you will say!

cheers brother, carry on with such posts! atleast they are a good source of amusment on this serious thread!

[hacsan]

has any senior made any kind of comparison? 50 millio is hell alot of money, why tiger is so expensive when comparing to other top of the range copters? what special tgier is hot on, which even Apaches n rest havet got?

any effort to elaborate will be highly appreciated, plus others on board will also benefit as no body seems to understand the difference b/t all.

[owais.usmani]

Originally Posted by hacsan

has any senior made any kind of comparison? 50 millio is hell alot of money, why tiger is so expensive when comparing to other top of the range copters? what special tgier is hot on, which even Apaches n rest havet got?

any effort to elaborate will be highly appreciated, plus others on board will also benefit as no body seems to understand the difference b/t all.

The latest version of Apache, the AH 64D Apache Longbow is even more expensive, upto 60 million dollars a piece for the Saudi Arabia sale.

Tiger is claimed to have superior avionics, is more agile, but it lacks behind the Apache in firepower, range and ceiling.

[owais.usmani]

No Tiger Helos in Potential French Sale To Pakistan
By USMAN ANSARI, ISLAMABAD

France is preparing a comprehensive defense package to help Pakistan in its counterterrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province bordering Afghanistan, according to a spokesman at the French defense section at Paris' embassy here.

Local media had reported a possible Franco-Pakistani defense deal in early July.

The spokesman said that the deal would include weapons and training.

"Nothing has been agreed, but a lot of things have been discussed. The main issue is to help Pakistan in the area of counterterrorism," he said.

He gave no further details but denied reports that a deal had been reached to sell the Franco-German Tiger helicopter to Islamabad.

The spokesman said the deal might be concluded when French President Nicholas Sarkozy visits sometime after Sept. 21.

France is already working to remedy a shortage of helicopters that has hindered the Pakistan Army during its counterterrorism operations in the North West Frontier Province. The French have returned Pakistan's Puma transport and utility helicopters to full operational status. They are also providing the armed variant of the AS550 Fennec light helicopter, which will join the unarmed Ecureuil variant that in service with Pakistan Army Aviation.

But France may not be keen to sell the Tiger gunship, said defense analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium.

Khan said the Pakistan Army needs extra gunships "immediately," but he noted that the most obvious source, Washington, is unable to meet the need. Pakistan had hoped to acquire the AH-64 Apache, but no funds are available for the purchase.

Additional AH-1F Cobras are also unlikely to materialize soon because, he said, "it takes close to 24 to 36 months to refurbish a stored AH-1 S/F and make it fully combat-operational."

However, a spokesman for the defense section in the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said Pakistan had previously declined an offer of further refurbished Cobras.

"Through Foreign Military Financing (FMF), the U.S. provided 12 refurbished AH-1Fs to Pakistan in 2007. Pakistan used U.S. grants to pay for the refurbishments. Also through FMF, the U.S. offered to refurbish an additional eight Pakistan Army AH-1F Cobras; however, Pakistan decided not to pursue this course of action," he said.

Khan said the only other U.S. option also comes with a considerable time delay.

"The U.S. has indicated that they are willing and able to release close to 14 AH-1W Super Cobras immediately, but first Pakistan Army pilots and technicians would need to be trained. Therefore, the Pakistan Army would be looking at another 10 to 12 months before it wears Pakistani colors," he said.

Khan said Pakistan's needs would best be met by the South African AH-2 Rooivalk.

"It is hard-hitting, rugged, needs little support, the Pakistan Army is familiar with the Puma platform [upon which it is based] and has expertise with it, and it suits Pakistan's industrial base to a large degree."

But he said the Rooivalk program is now all but at a premature end, and Islamabad lacks the finances to revive and purchase it from the South Africans.

No Tiger Helos in Potential French Sale To Pakistan

[Patriot]

He gave no further details but denied reports that a deal had been reached to sell the Franco-German Tiger helicopter to Islamabad.

The spokesman said the deal might be concluded when French President Nicholas Sarkozy visits sometime after Sept. 21.
Every one where knew there was no deal finalizied.So i would not surprised if its finalized later on and look how happy Indian troll is.
Re Sancho: Yes, man anything Pakistan buys its crap.Pakisani pilots will jump out of tiger and cobras because they cant match the mighty indian machines.

[Owais]

Originally Posted by Haanzo

ha thats the end of it ...sorry guys better luck next time

if this ends like that, then its good for PA to save money because am still in favor of T129 or Z-10. even Mi28 from Russia is a good option if Russians allows such sale.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Haanzo

ha thats the end of it ...sorry guys better luck next time

dont for get few years ago few media reports or even officials claimed that no F-16s for pakistan and now as we speak new blocks are being produced in LM. same goes with german U-boat sales.. one small party oppose U-boats sale to PAK but German military, HDW, and majority of the government wants to earn $$ and sell them to us...