South African Cheetahs For Ecuador

[Tempest II]

Source: The SAAF Forum • View topic - Cheetah C Sale to Ecuador...

I post this article to support my own bias – which by the way is not saying it is factual wrong. If you read through this article, one revelation highlighted a few times is Ecuador’s fear that Denel/South Africa cannot independently support the Cheetahs, i.e. the South African aviation industry is very limited. Secondly not how much the article acknowledges Israeli involvement in upgrading the Cheetah – so much for a South African development! And finally check how they write Derby/R-Darter (similar to FC-1/JF-17).

The reason South African worked hard to say they have a capable defense industry was to hide their sanction busting. That should also explain why the current military modernization were openly imports. Yes they can assembly and make some components, but they still have to import the critical parts.

As Reported on Defence Industry Daily quote:

Ecuador’s FAE currently operates a variety of fighter aircraft. 14 Israeli Kfirs, (12 + 2 two-seat trainers) upgraded to the C10/CE standard, 12 upgraded French Mirage F1 fighters originally delivered in 1978-80, and about 20 A-37 Dragonflys form their fighter core, with about 7 Jaguar strike aircraft that are reportedly in storage and unfit to fly. The Kfirs will last for a little while, but the Jaguars, Dragonflys, and Mirage F1s need replacement.

A deal is reportedly in the works for up to 24 of Brazil’s Super Tucanos, which are replacing the A-37 with a variety of Latin American air forces. They can’t replace the Jaguars and F1s, however, which has triggered a search for replacements that can be bought on a small budget. After investigating a number of offers, a deal with South Africa is reportedly in the works. Meanwhile, Venezuela has stepped in with an offer of its own…

The Reported Deals

South Africa’s Denel Aviation has confirmed that talks are underway concerning an order for its Cheetah-C aircraft, which bear a number of similarities to Ecuador’s Kfir CEs but have French SNECMA engines and older radars. The offer includes 12 aircraft, plus a complete 5-year, renewable maintenance and support package. Complete maintenance and acceptance flight testing would be conducted in South Africa and in Ecuador, and Denel expects a deal to be finalized before the end of 2009.

Denel Aviation was the prime contractor in the development of the Cheetah during the mid 1980s, holds official design authority for the aircraft, and also performed contractor support for South Africa’s fleet until its 2008 phase-out. They were involved with the structured phase out of the Cheetah logistic support system, and witnessed the packaging of the systems and equipment for storage pending a possible sale.

The key questions Ecuador must consider are whether Denel can support the Cheetah-C radars and avionics by itself, and their ability to replace Israeli weapons with South African weapons if the USA chooses to block future Israeli military sales or services to Ecuador.
As part of his campaign for wider influence in Ecuador and in Latin America, Venezuelan Strongman Hugo Chavez stepped in to offer Ecuador 6 of the FAV’s Mirage 50M fighters. Ecuador’s President Rafael Correa has been a close ally of the Chavez regime’s for several years. Unfortunately, the Mirage 50Ms are less advanced than the Israeli-upgraded Mirage F1s they might replace, and their state of maintenance is not certain. Reports indicate that if Ecuador does accept Venezuela’s Mirage 50Ms, they would likely serve in a training role as transitions from the pending Super Tucanos to Ecuador’s Kfir/ Cheetah fighters.

As is often the case, however, training aircraft may be pressed into double duty. The Super Tucanos will perform as very capable counter-insurgency and light attack aircraft, as well as being excellent 2nd-stage flight trainers. Likewise, any serviceable Mirage 50s on hand would also be available for combat if the situation demanded it, and might offer a second option if the FAE’s Kfir fleet ends up grounded.
The question for Ecuador’s FAE is whether the money and effort required to maintain the Mirages would add a meaningful capability, or end up being an expensive diversion that came disguised as a bargain.

The Aircraft

The Atlas Cheetah was derived from South Africa’s Mirage III fleet. Since the Israeli Kfir was already a modification of Israeli-built Mirage Vs, they were able to help South Africa upgrade their planes to a similar standard by adding small canards, avionics improvements, radar and self-defense equipment, and modernized weapons. Cheetahs were produced in a number of variants.

Creating a Cheetah involved a structural reset to create a “zero flying hours” airframe, plus the standard Cheetah additions of non-moving canards, additional stores pylons at the wing roots, an aerial refuelling probe, new ejection seats, the SNECMA Atar 9K50 engine, modified wings, modern elevons, strakes on the nose, Israeli avionics that included Elbit’s DASH helmet-mounted display (HMD), a twin computer flight control system, and the ability to use South African or Israeli weapons. Chile reportedly bought 5 earlier-model Cheetahs in 2003, in order to serve as a source of spares for its now-retired Pantera fleet of Mirage 50s with Kfir-like upgrades.

The Cheetah-C was the most advanced variant. It reportedly added a single-piece wrap-around windshield with an anti-radiation coating, a new in-flight refuelling probe with less external piping, new undercarriage and suspension, an upgraded variant of the SNECMA Atar 9K50 engine, a more modern radar (rumored to be the same IAI EL/M-2032 that equips Israeli F-16s and FAE Kfir C10s), upgraded Elbit HMDs, and modernized ECM and self defense suites. Previous Cheetah variants were limited to carrying short range air-air missiles, but the Cheetah C can use Derby/R-Darter BVRAAMs(Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missiles) as well. The FAE already uses Israeli missiles and strike weapons, so its compatibility would be an asset.

Cheetah-Cs served as South Africa’s front-line fighter ahead of the SAAF’s Mirage F1s, until they were phased out in 2008 in favor of the new JAS-39C/D Gripen. Brazil was reportedly offered Cheetahs to replace its own recently-retired Mirage 5BRs, but chose to purchase used French Mirage 2000s instead.

The Mirage V was designed in conjunction with the Israelis, who had made Dassault’s Mirage III famous. It actually removed avionics and radar capabilities from the Mirage III, in order to add more fuel and more weapons. The resulting plane was optimized for clear-weather attack roles, and close air combat. Israel’s Col. Giora Epstein (ret.) remains the world’s top-scoring jet ace. Most of his 17 kills were scored in Israeli Neshers (Mirage 5s), including one memorable fight in 1973 when he dueled 11 Egyptian MiG-21s, all by himself, and shot down 3.
The Mirage 50 is a 1980s-1990s Mirage III/V upgrade that added the Atar 9K-50 engine and Cyrano IV-M3 radar, among other improvements. It did not substantially change the basic airframe, however, whose design had lost much of its competitiveness by that time. The Mirage 50 was not a popular export; only Chile (Mirage 50/Pantera) and Venezuela (Mirage 50M) ordered them, and in the 1990s, Chile went on to upgrade its planes to the Kfir-like Pantera configuration with Israeli help. Chile’s Panteras were recently phased out in favor of new F-16 C/Ds, and they were reportedly one of the offers made to Ecuador’s government.

Israel went down a different road. They switched in the American GE J79 turbojet that powered the Cheyl Ha’avir’s F-4 Phantoms, and heavily modified the Nesher airframe and electronics, in order to design IAI’s canard-winged Kfir series fighters. This expertise would lead the Israelis to assist in the similar South African Cheetah and Chilean Pantera programs. Ecuador currently flies the Kfir C10/CE, the family’s most advanced variant with IAI’s popular EL/M-2032 radar, a fully digital cockpit, and the ability to carry precision weapons and radar-guided air-air missiles.

The GE J79 is no longer in production, but more than 2,500 engines remain in service around the world. GE still offers related services, and there is no shortage of spares via the USAF’s AMARC “Boneyard” near Tucson. Unless, of course, the USA decides at some point to block military sales to Ecuador.

Contracts and Key Events

Oct 5/09: Defense Aerospace runs a release labeled Denel Aviation, which confirms ongoing discussions around 12 Cheetah-C aircraft and sets out the deal’s broad terms – but not its cost. The deal would involve 12 aircraft, plus a complete 5-year, renewable maintenance and support package. Complete maintenance and acceptance flight testing would be conducted in South Africa and in Ecuador, and Denel expects a deal to be finalized before the end of 2009.

Denel Aviation CEO Ismail Dockrat is quoted as saying that: ”...we see this [deal] as a platform to showcase [South] Africa’s MRO capability to the rest of the world.” Defense Aerospace | See also South Africa’s Engineering News.

Sept 30/09: Venezuela’s El Universal quotes Ecuadorian Security Minister Miguel Carvajal:

“We plan to use these [Mirage 50M] airplanes for training in our transition from the current status of Ecuadorian obsolete planes to what is expected, provided that some discussions for supersonic jets are materialized.”

Sept 28/09: Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa reportedly announces in the northern town of Ibarra that:
“Venezuela wants to give us six Mirage jets … we are going to accept them.”

Correa reportedly describes the jets as being “in good condition,” and adds that the country is discussing the purchase of a further 12 jets from South Africa and 24 Super Tucano fighters from Brazil, as well as radar systems and helicopters. The reference to discussions re: the Super Tucano sale is odd, since Brazil’s Embraer confirmed the sale in March 2009. Agence France Presse.

Sept 24/09: Ecuadoran daily El Universo reports that the FAE has recommended buying South Africa’s Cheetahs, adding that bids presented by Spain and Chile exceeded Ecuador’s modernization budget. The aircraft offered by Chile and Spain were not mentioned, but Chile would almost certainly have offered its recently-decommissioned Pantera fighters, which are Mirage 50s modified by the Israelis to Kfir capabilities. Spain flies Mirage F1s that are being supplanted by new Eurofighter Typhoons, and might be for sale, but would probably require additional upgrade work to be fully compatible with FAE weapons etc.

The FAE has not confirmed these reports, but EL Universo adds that:

“The decision on the purchase has been made and it is estimated that in December the financial negotiations will begin. For that, an outlay of $35 million from a not-yet-determined total amount is anticipated.”

Denel Aviation representatives reportedly renewed their offer in August 2009, during a visit to the Cotopaxi airbase. Other reports place the modernization budget at $65 million, which seems more likely if support is also involved. Speaking of which, the FAE is also expected to present a technical report on the advisability of accepting the donation of 6 Mirage 50M jets from Venezuela. Inside Costa Rica | Poder 360 | South Africa’s Engineering News Report and Video Interview.

Sept 23/09: Venezuela’s El Universal reports that Ecuador has yet to decide whether it will accept Venezuela’s gift of 6 Mirage 50 fighters. See also China’s government-run Xinhua, which gets some key details wrong (Ecuador does not have Mirage III/V/50 aircraft), but notes that negotiations revolve around “commission” and maintenance costs.

[DbnReaper]

By: Keith Campbell - SA Engineering Forum
28th September 2009
"South African aerospace company Denel Aviation has confirmed that it is leading a joint project with Armscor to sell former South African Air Force (SAAF) Denel Cheetah C supersonic fighters to the South American country of Ecuador.

Denel Aviation is a business of the State-owned Denel defence industrial group, and Armscor is South Africa’s defence procurement, disposals, and research and development agency.

“This is a really big project,” reports Denel Aviation CEO Ismail Dockrat. “We are very excited about it.” On Friday, Engineering News Online revealed that Ecuadorean Defence Minister Javier Ponce had told his country’s media that Ecuador was negotiating with South Africa to buy 12 Cheetah C single-seat fighters.

“The programme would involve the supply of the aircraft, plus the maintenance of the Cheetahs over time,” explains Dockrat. Armscor and Denel are both involved because the former is responsible for the disposal of retired and surplus South African National Defence Force material and equipment, while the latter holds the design authority for, and has the maintenance experience with, the Cheetah.

According to the Ecuadorean newspaper El Universo, that country has, in principle, decided to acquire the Cheetahs, but an actual purchase depends on the outcome of the financial negotiations, which will start in December. Ecuador has budgeted an initial $35-million for this programme, but expects the total costs to be higher.

According to the newspaper, representatives of Denel offered Cheetahs to Ecuador on August 26, while visiting the Ecuadorean Air Force's Cotopaxi Air Base. The Cheetah Cs were retired by the SAAF last year, in anticipation of the arrival of new Saab Gripen fighters, which are now being delivered.

Ecuador is seeking to modernise its fighter force at minimum cost, and reportedly South Africa is offering the Cheetahs at lower prices than Chile and Spain are seeking for fighters that are now surplus to their requirements. Indeed, the prices sought by Chile and Spain exceed the fighter acquisition budget available to the Ecuadorian Air Force.

Further, the Cheetahs have quite modern avionics systems, apparently equivalent to those of the modernised Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir CE fighters already operated by Ecuador. The Cheetahs would be operated alongside the Kfirs.

The South African fighters, highly modernised Dassault Mirage IIICs originally bought from France, would most likely replace Ecuador's current force of Dassault F1 fighters (a type once also operated by South Africa and replaced in SAAF service by the Cheetah), and perhaps its Sepecat Jaguar fighter-bombers.

It is not known if Ecuador will also seek to acquire South African weapons to go with the Cheetah fighters.

Venezuela has offered to transfer to Ecuador, free of charge, six Mirage 50 fighters. But these are themselves obsolete and would not represent any modernisation of the Ecuadorian fighter fleet. Indeed, they are actually more obsolete than the Mirage F1s Ecuador seeks to replace.

In recent years, most major South American countries have launched programmes to modernise their fighter forces. For example, Venezuela has bought Sukhoi SU-30MKV fighters from Russia, and Chile has purchased both new and second-hand examples of American Lockheed Martin F-16, while Brazil is expected to chose its next fighter type with a matter of weeks."

This article seems to indicate that Denel and Armscor of South Africa jointly hold the design and patent of the avionics which is similar to Israeli Kfir Ce fighters. The counter suggestion in your posted article is quite possible tho as it is a given fact that both Denel and Armscor of SA have an extremely close working relationship with Israeli defence technology companies.

[Black Blood]

who the hell says it looks like a JF17 , to me it looks more like a Mirage IV which has caught Flue...

[Growler]

@ defence.pk thread starters.
kindly keep aviation, land force, naval force Pakistan military oriented discussion. South Africa selling its cheetahs to ecuador has nothing got to do with PAF or Brazil buying Rafales or China making new stealth fighters.
thank you.

[nightrider_saulat]

this jet is nothing in front of thunders

[Tempest II]

Originally Posted by Growler

@ defence.pk thread starters.
kindly keep aviation, land force, naval force Pakistan military oriented discussion. South Africa selling its cheetahs to ecuador has nothing got to do with PAF or Brazil buying Rafales or China making new stealth fighters.
thank you.

My bad I guess. The point I was making was the continued posts on getting South African munitions and my view (and obviously of Ecuador) is that South Africa/Denel relies on a foreign partner or foreign partners.

Should we request a small sub-section that we can discuss other countries/issues of the military that do not relate to Pakistan? I an sure I am not the only member who enjoy digressing into other non-Pakistan issues. ... ???

[emotionless_teenage]

how could a 70's fighter jets being compared with a new one?

[ice_man]

why cannot we get our MIRAGES upgraded to CHEETAH standard instead of phasing them out....assuming that CHEETAH is a better upgrade package then the ROSE package we currently have....

[Tempest II]

Originally Posted by ice_man

why cannot we get our MIRAGES upgraded to CHEETAH standard instead of phasing them out....assuming that CHEETAH is a better upgrade package then the ROSE package we currently have....

I doubt the Cheetahs are superior to the ROSE upgrades. I am not too clued as to the ROSE upgrades but I know they have a Grifo radar. The Cheetahs have a ELM-2032 and some basic details here: ELM-2032-3.JPG (image)

What I have read however from South African forumites who were part of the project team is that the Cheetah has inferior aerodynamics than the original Mirage III. I will look on their forum later and see if I can qoute some numbers for those interested.

[DbnReaper]

Originally Posted by Tempest II

I doubt the Cheetahs are superior to the ROSE upgrades. I am not too clued as to the ROSE upgrades but I know they have a Grifo radar. The Cheetahs have a ELM-2032 and some basic details here: ELM-2032-3.JPG (image)

What I have read however from South African forumites who were part of the project team is that the Cheetah has inferior aerodynamics than the original Mirage III. I will look on their forum later and see if I can qoute some numbers for those interested.

Cheetah is an outdated fighter even by SA peace time standards. I thinks its more of a situation of "dumping your thrash on another 3rd world country which has an embargo on it". SA government is well known for using other countries which have embargoes set up against them by the USA etc as dumping grounds for their old weapons and then turning around and saying "see how we do not listen to the USA and UK and have our our foreign policy"

[Wingman]

Originally Posted by Growler

@ defence.pk thread starters.
kindly keep aviation, land force, naval force Pakistan military oriented discussion. South Africa selling its cheetahs to ecuador has nothing got to do with PAF or Brazil buying Rafales or China making new stealth fighters.
thank you.

Yeap I agree!!

[Growler]

Originally Posted by ice_man

why cannot we get our MIRAGES upgraded to CHEETAH standard instead of phasing them out....assuming that CHEETAH is a better upgrade package then the ROSE package we currently have....

genius at least do some research before you convenes us what a clue less newbie you are. SAAF Cheetahs are upgraded with IAI systems good luck with the plan and btw PAF Mirages fleet are upgraded to Rose standard and do not require future upgrades plus they will soon be phased out.

[Tempest II]

Originally Posted by Growler

genius at least do some research before you convenes us what a clue less newbie you are. SAAF Cheetahs are upgraded with IAI systems good luck with the plan and btw PAF Mirages fleet are upgraded to Rose standard and do not require future upgrades plus they will soon be phased out.

Thanks Growler - IAI systems - this is the exact point I am trying to make and have been concerning the calls for South Africa missiles! Thank you very much!

[fatman17]

mods pls move to military forum - this space is reserved for PAF

[ice_man]

Originally Posted by Growler

genius at least do some research before you convenes us what a clue less newbie you are. SAAF Cheetahs are upgraded with IAI systems good luck with the plan and btw PAF Mirages fleet are upgraded to Rose standard and do not require future upgrades plus they will soon be phased out.

before running your mouth little boy do read what i said! that i know our mirages are upgraded to ROSE but what is the major difference between ROSE & Cheetah upgrade! and for your kind information our MIRAGES are not going to get phased out air head! first we plan on phashing our the F-7s we are not insane to upgrade the mirages to ROSE III and phase them out! why don't you do some research before calling someone a newbie!! i mgiht be new to this forum but i am not new to military!!!! control yourself boy!