Are we counting out the Gripen?

[Contrarian]

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For Aero India there will be 3 real operative Swedish Air force Gripen C/D at the show. The Gripen pavillion (which btw is 4 times larger than the stalls of Rafale and x2 as MIG and LM) will have both a full scale replica and a virtual cockpit simulator. The SAAB offer to india is based around full technological transfer, with the first Indian specific jet constructed in Sweden while the Indian assembly line is set up. After that all jets will be produced in India at HAL with local suppliers as much as possible. (i.e 125 of 126)

Exactly what will be included in a RFP is not known. Only that SAAB will include AESA if the RFP will allow for it. SAAB has opened up a permanent office in Bangalore that will stay there to explore partnerships even if Gripen is not selected.
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Gripen info, the basic specs you all know so I don't bother with that: Today Gripen is a mature Swingrole jet in all the A2A, A2G w/LGB/GPS/SAR, ASHm, RECON, EW aspects. Not just on paper like the other delayed or underfunded New Gen jets.

Retractable Refueling Probe and OBOGS. Further upgrades next 30-40 yrs financed by Sweden. Spin-off tech from SAAB-Dassault UCAV partnership will also be transferred when applicable. Deliveries and offset agreements to all export customers has been met ahead of schedule.

The 39 of today can be modified for more weapons and fuel, it was planned to add two more fuselage pylons to the 39C but the SwAF didn't want them as they don't like baby-steps in development. (This is why they don't use AESA but instead directed more funds to the development of a more advanced M-AESA)

The SwAF often exercise with F/A-18, MIG-29 and F-16MLU's in Europe, in WVR and BVR fights the Gripens win almost always (no comments on specifics) due to the small RCS, strong radar and autonomous datalink which gives great situational awareness. No surprise really, those are old jets. Dogfights is a more equal fight but the Gripen can keep the momentum easily and the pilot doesn't need to focus on flying as much. At Red Flag Alaska with US, Canadian and Japanese F-16/F-15J/CF18 jets the new built-in EW system proved very effective against both aerial and ground threats (SAMs).

Tactical: When a pilot mark a target it's lit up as booked on the autonomous datalink screen of the other jets. Even those on the ground 500km away if they have selected 'wide' view. Situational awareness is further enhanced with a Dual-Seat WSO. The cockpit has 3D-audio for virtual location of wingmen and voice recognition. The jet is self-correcting with a 5-layered FCS backup.

The MIG-29 and MIG-21 pilots in Hungary and the Czech Republic that now fly Gripen sound pretty happy about the Gripen. The Czechs have flown several live NATO Quick Reaction Alerts and have had 100% operational capability. The conversion training doesn't take long either. The difficult part is how to learn old horses how to use computers. Gripen is a training platform for the US Navy, French Air Force, the Australian and British Air force under the UK Ministry of Defence Empire Test pilot's School. And South Africa is testing out their first jet.

Since Sweden still use a conscript military the systems need to have a high degree of autonomy, self-diagnostics and care free jet with only 4 conscripts and 1 specialist needed for reload/rearm/repair, a engine change can be done in 45 minutes. Refuel in 5, refuel+rearm in 10-15min. In/Out of a 500m roadstrip.

The jet has been verified against 4 different engines (3 sources) and is built to be easily upgraded and components replaced from another source. As has been done with landing gear and APU. And actually the whole C-version is more or less new except for the aeronautical design and engine.

Sweden has since 2003 the highest defense cooperation agreement with the US, shared only with the UK and Australia. The only nation allowed to conduct AMRAAM tests outside of the US.

Global weapons package.
Integrated with: AIM-9L, AIM-9M8/9 Sidewinder, AIM-120B, AIM-120-C5 AMRAAM, AGM-65 Maverick, IRIS-T, Twin Store Carrier, KEPD-350 Taurus Cruise missile, DWS39 Stand Off Dispenser, RBS-15 AShm, GBU 10/12/16 LGB, MK 82/83/84 Bomb, LITENING III, Bofors Rocket pod, Reconnaissance pod, A/R/U-Darter (under integration), METEOR (live firing of ALD)

Confirmed with: AIM-9X, ASRAAM, Python 4, Python 5, Derby, MICA, SPICE, Lizard II and III, JDAM, JDAM-ER, JSOW, SDB, Brimstone, BOQ-X300 Jammer Pod, Kongsberg NSM

Optional: SAAB IRST Optical sight, Cobra Helmet Mounted Display.

During Q4 2006 the Swedish military ordered further integration work on precision guided weapons and upgrades to the radar. And presented its 10 year RoadMap for enhanced attack capability. The Government is currently negotiating the deal for 31 new jets and Norway is negotiating their participation on the new Gripen NG (N/DK) (which is larger, new engine etc) Gripen is leading the integration work of the METEOR BVRAAM with the current PS-05/A radar and datalink, being the only technologically mature platform in the EU for this work.

i.e Mature, Operational, Modern, In production, Financed upgrade path.
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This was posted elsewhere, i dont know whether its an article, as i could not find a link, in anycase the credit is to davedogman. I think its an excellent article and that probably we are discounting the Gripen way too fast. And thinking that it will not be able to match the F/A-18E/F or the MiG 35.

[Iceman2]

Gripen is a good fighter plane it was also offered to pakistan with TOT as said by CAS before but they dump it in favour of F-16 C/D and with rumors of pakistan's interest in F-16 NG.

[Munir]

http://www.cas2.com/Jas39Gripen.htm

You wanna buy them...?

The immediately sale of 150 Swedish Jas 39 Gripen fighter aircraft, through me Thomas Persson

It is possible to buy long term contracts for spare parts, education, pilot training and additional Weapon Systems from SAAB if aircrafts are purchase.

Regular price of one fighter is about 67 244 000 USD now at rebate prices.

Ther is some 400 tanks of Leopard class 2 for sale as well. It is also possibel to buy Bofors haubit.

Contact and information: Cell phone +46-707-602119 or e-mail

[Contrarian]

Gripen is a good fighter plane it was also offered to pakistan with TOT as said by CAS before but they dump it in favour of F-16 C/D and with rumors of pakistan's interest in F-16 NG.

Iceman i would be greatful if you could provide me the link that Gripen was offered to PAF with ToT. If that is the case, i am fairly certain that IAF is not going to buy it...
But please provide me the link.

I am again fairly confident that Pakistan has not been offered F-16NG and will not be offered in the near future. NG is the development that would be completed IF India buys the aircraft.Acc. to LM F-16 NG will be "the best of block 50 and block 60, with elements from the F-22 and F-35". It would be custom made for India as LM is constantly telling the GoI.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1896.html
Read the last paragraph carefully.

[WebMaster]

If Gripen is being offered to India, there is no reason that it is not being offered to Pakistan either. The only thing we are talking here is that Pakistan is not interested in Gripen.

[Contrarian]

If Gripen is being offered to India, there is no reason that it is not being offered to Pakistan either. The only thing we are talking here is that Pakistan is not interested in Gripen.

There are a lot of thigs offered to India that are not offered to Pakistan mate. PAF might or might not be interested in Gripen, but the point was, is there any news report that Gripen was offered to Pakistan with complete ToT?

[WebMaster]

There are a lot of thigs offered to India that are not offered to Pakistan mate. PAF might or might not be interested in Gripen, but the point was, is there any news report that Gripen was offered to Pakistan with complete ToT?

That is irrelivant to if PAF can get it or not. What matters is.. Pakistan Air Force can get Gripen from Swedish with transfer of technology if it wants to, and there is no one who will be able to stop it.

The person with the money will own the world.

[Contrarian]

That is not correct mate. My initial statement was that if the Gripen was offered in any way to Pakistan, then im fairly confident that IAF will not get it. So thus i querried whether it has till date been offered to Pakistan?

[WebMaster]

That is not correct mate. My initial statement was that if the Gripen was offered in any way to Pakistan, then im fairly confident that IAF will not get it. So thus i querried whether it has till date been offered to Pakistan?

Dear malay,

Gripen was denied on the bases of embargo, this is when F-16s couldn't be sold to Pakistan. When the relations got better. Gripen was offered to Pakistan, but then Pakistan rejected it due to the cost, and is now pursuing J-10 aircraft instead as a much reliable option.

Plus, why would IAF will not go for it. If Gripen was offered to Pakistan? Politics? Good one.

[blain2]

There are a lot of thigs offered to India that are not offered to Pakistan mate. PAF might or might not be interested in Gripen, but the point was, is there any news report that Gripen was offered to Pakistan with complete ToT?

This is not true. There may be things that are offered to India through her long term suppliers like Russia etc. but aside from that, the west tends to offer similar stuff to both Pakistan and India....the problem with Gripen for PAF was two pronged:

i) Setup entirely new infrastructure for the 39. In terms of real capabilities, JAS-39 does not offer anything substantially greater than Blk50/52. So PAF preferred the latter just because we were already familiar with the type.

ii) The engine is a GE-404. In terms of sanctions etc., the Gripen is constrained by similar factors as would be the US aircraft. As such it was better to deal directly with the Americans instead of dealing with the Swedes.

iii) I agree that ToT and that too complete one for JAS-39 is not possible for Pakistan at least just because we cannot absorb it. India can absorb more of it but even then not all the way.

[blain2]

I am again fairly confident that Pakistan has not been offered F-16NG and will not be offered in the near future. NG is the development that would be completed IF India buys the aircraft.Acc. to LM F-16 NG will be "the best of block 50 and block 60, with elements from the F-22 and F-35". It would be custom made for India as LM is constantly telling the GoI.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1896.html
Read the last paragraph carefully.

F-16NG etc., is all conceptual. IAF will not be able to foot the bill for its development aside from buying the numbers (190 or so). The development itself will cost close to $7-8 billion USD or maybe the same as what UAE spent (I am extrapolating this number based on the $6 billion that UAE spent on the development of F-16 E/F and the additional funds spent to purchase the 60 or so types bought).

Also by the time an F-16 NG version is available, the F-35 would be operational around many countries besides other Russian and western aircraft .

I think the only American aircraft with a chance for the Indian MRCA is the Super Hornet. However it would be too expensive to be purchased in the numbers for which the tender has been put out to fulfil the MRCA requirement.

[WebMaster]

In addition to that i believe Indian Air Force is looking for transfer of technology with the MRCA deal, and if that is true then it is a death to the LCA programme.

[WebMaster]

iii) I agree that ToT and that too complete one for JAS-39 is not possible for Pakistan at least just because we cannot absorb it. India can absorb more of it but even then not all the way.

Blain2,

I dont understand why India would be able to absorb it? Is it because of the LCA programme that they have worked on over the years which gives them sufficient experience or Indian aeronautical industry is better than Pakistans?

Do you think Pakistan will be able to handle transfer of technology for the aircrafts like Super J-10, and Super Hornet in the future once the aviation industry have enough experience with the JF-17 aircraft?

I dont think we should underestimate our people. I believe in those people, and the future out look for our aviation industry seems real bright as many grad students from the United States are going back to work in Pakistan for our own aviation industry and other related projects. (On the other note related to this, some fear of prejudice due to Punjabi and Mahajir related crises, which i believe have been minimized a lot.)

[Contrarian]

F-16NG etc., is all conceptual. IAF will not be able to foot the bill for its development aside from buying the numbers (190 or so). The development itself will cost close to $7-8 billion USD or maybe the same as what UAE spent (I am extrapolating this number based on the $6 billion that UAE spent on the development of F-16 E/F and the additional funds spent to purchase the 60 or so types bought).

Also by the time an F-16 NG version is available, the F-35 would be operational around many countries besides other Russian and western aircraft .

I think the only American aircraft with a chance for the Indian MRCA is the Super Hornet. However it would be too expensive to be purchased in the numbers for which the tender has been put out to fulfil the MRCA requirement.

Mate, the F-16NG is not an entirely new machine. It will incorporate the best elements already made and integrated by LM from the blk 50 to blk-60. For the blk 60 for UAE, LM had to make new things and get them integrated like AESA radars, and much else for the first time.

The F-16NG will simply assemble whatever is best in the F-16 along with some spin off technologies from the F-22 and F-35. All the things have already been done for UAE. I HIGHLY doubt if the integration or rnd for this would exceed 1Bill USD at the very very highest end.

LM knows that if it turns out to be very expensive India will not consider it. Thus if they are putting this up, that emans the planeLM has already said that they will make everything here, it would be full ToT. Apart from that they will invest in India.

F-16NG will not take time to develop as like i said, its only assembly that is required. F-35 is going to be inducted not before 2015. There is a long time till then.

And its not because of the things mentioned by you that IAF will not go for F-16. Its cuz Pakistan has F-16's, so India will never buy them, no matter that LM has said the plane they sell to India will be completely different from the one that Pakistan has.

And yes, the F/A-18E/F will be too expensive for India in 126 numbers. That is why i think that the order will be split b/w MiG 35 and F-18. This will not only double the rate at which the planes are acquired but also keep both Russia and US happy. Aside from giving two very very capable planes to the IAF. The MiG 35 required no change in infrastructure. The only new plane in terms of types that would be gotten, would be the F-18.
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Yes webby, India would be able to absorb it because of the LCA programme along with the Su-30MKI programme. Mostly its the LCA. Its because of the LCA that India has the industrial capacity to make a plane from the paper designs. Even making the Su-30MKI does not give this capacity as the plane even though it was integrated to a good limit by ourselves(thus the MKI) does not give this. You have to make a plane to get the capacity.

LCA has given India, the experience, the industrial infrastructure and the technique to build fighter planes. So it now can absorb any such undertaking.

Pakistan is yet to do anysuch thing. Infact the first time that Pakistan will manufacture anything related to a plane would be fr the JF-17, if i am correct that it is going to be manufactured in Pakistan!???

We assembled the MKI, but that cannot give the industrial capacity. Also the Indian aerospace industry is much larger and much more developed than Pakistan's. That is private players. That also goes a long way in having the absorbtion capacity.

India also has a proven space sector , India makes her own satellites and puts it in orbit herself. That also contributes to the absobtion capacity.

No doubt the future of aerospace industry in Pakistan is very bright, but as of now its not at all developed. It will take a very long time for that.

[Contrarian]

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In addition to that i believe Indian Air Force is looking for transfer of technology with the MRCA deal, and if that is true then it is a death to the LCA programme.

Webby, you have to look at the larger picture. LCA has given this country the experience, the industrial capacity , the brainpower and the technology to realise planes indegenously. It cannot be looked at alone. It was because we did not have thees things when we undertook the ambitious pogramme, that there were so many delays etc. The next plane that India develops will be much better because of this. India now has the capacity which it did not have earlier.

Same goes for Arjun,though its gonna be inducted soon.