Airbus A400M deal with South Africa goes down drain oppourtunity for Pakistan

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

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Nov 5/09: South Africa’s government announces that they are pulling out of the A400M program, which was on pace to deliver its first aircraft to South Africa in 2014-2016, instead of 2010 as originally planned:

“Cabinet decided to terminate the contract to purchase eight A400 Airbus strategic lift aircraft. This decision follows a review of the contract by the Ministries of Defence and Military Veterans, Finance, Trade and Industry, Science and Technology and Public Enterprises. The termination of the contract is due to extensive cost escalation and the supplier’s failure to deliver the aircraft within the stipulated timeframes. Armscor will be instructed to terminate the programme as soon as possible.


Perhaps Pakistan should pick up these 8 A400M units for its transportation needs to move Al Khalid tanks faster from east to west , and vice versa if needed

The plan looks very capable


General characteristics

Crew: 3 or 4 (2 pilots, 3rd optional, 1 loadmaster)
Capacity: 37,000 kg (82,000 lb)
116 fully equipped troops / paratroops,
up to 66 stretchers accompanied by 25 medical personnel

[BlackenTheSky]

Perhaps Pakistan should pick up these 8 A400M units for its transportation needs to move Al Khalid tanks faster from east to west , and vice versa if needed

I am confused,its your sugguestion or that journalist's?

[pak-yes]

Perhaps Pakistan should pick up these 8 A400M units for its transportation needs to move Al Khalid tanks faster from east to west , and vice versa if needed

Do you know its price 100 mil euros a plane.Its a failed project with even the original buyers forging excuses to pull out.And you say that Pakistan should look to get this crap.and by the way it is being developed by Air Bus not Boeing.

France24 - The much-delayed A400M Airbus military plane in maiden test flight

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well , Germany , who is known to be top country when it comes to engineerings , is buying 60 units and France is buying 50 units ...

Only ppl who pulled out were , smaller countries , but the major powers are all standing behind the plane , infact it made its first flight !! This month

This thing has double the capacity of C130 , its new , new avionics and performance its a great machine to quickly move Troops and Tanks to places where they are needed -

Our C130 will only fly for so long , since the developer is in need of cash we might get a deal if we get 8 of these ordered while we have the Nato Ally designations ....


Germany 60
France 50
Spain 27
United Kingdom 25
Turkey 10
Belgium 7
Luxembourg

Lets not forget the C130 Pakistan has are from 1960's thats a long time ago when we got them , so might as well get 8 new ones , while we have a chance to place a bid on ones rejected by South Africa

If Pakistan gets 8 , these would be , like getting 16 C130 in term of performance and return on investment

[BlackenTheSky]

Pakistan should go for c 17 globemaster,not this in my opinion.what you ppl say?

[pak-yes]

Well , Germany , who is known to be top country when it comes to engineerings , is buying 60 units and France is buying 50 units ...

Only ppl who pulled out were , smaller countries , but the major powers are all standing behind the plane , infact it made its first flight !! This month

This thing has double the capacity of C130 , its new , new avionics and performance its a great machine to quickly move Troops and Tanks to places where they are needed -

Our C130 will only fly for so long , since the developer is in need of cash we might get a deal if we get 8 of these ordered while we have the Nato Ally designations ....


Germany 60
France 50
Spain 27
United Kingdom 25
Turkey 10
Belgium 7
Luxembourg

Lets not forget the C130 Pakistan has are from 1960's thats a long time ago when we got them , so might as well get 8 new ones , while we have a chance to place a bid on ones rejected by South Africa

If Pakistan gets 8 , these would be , like getting 16 C130 in term of performance and return on investment

My brother the price of C-130 ranges from 12 to 50 million dollars.And this plane will cost 150 million dollars and still it's not the final price.Agreed that this plane has Much larger Capacity and other things.But Still don't forget PAF budget.The examples above you are giving are all Europeans who have huge sums of money to waste.But we dont.Already Pakistan has its hands full in so many projects(JF-17,J-10s,F-16,Mid AIR Refulers).And All european weapons are expensive.I dont think Pakistan has need of new transports.And if we are so desperate we should try to get some american transports as they not only have experience but also the price is lower while capablities are much higher.On the Other Hand EADS doesnt have experience like boeing or Lockheed Martin.so they are spending all the Money in R&D which they will not pay by them but Ultimately will collect from end users.while american already have the R&D and we only have to pay for the Plane.The only Problem with americans is their unreliability.Hope this clears my point.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Specifications (C-17)
Capacity:

102 troops with standard centerline seats or
134 troops with palletized seats

Max takeoff weight: 585,000 lb (265,350 kg) VERY IMPRESIVE

Unit cost 218 Million dollars




Pay load capacity of the Globemaster is impressive , indeed but ,
A400M could be , a ideal mid sized solution to our agcing transporation needs

The troop size is almost identical , but the over all weight bearing capacity of the Globemaster is 4x that of A400M


Flight range of A400M is superior as it can go maximum 6,300 km with out refueling meaing it can ho to all major areas in world almost
that are of interest ...and uses less fuel as well

Not to mention cheaper then the Globemaster



GLOBEMASTER IS ideal for PAY LOAD capacity , but if you are just looking to upgrade old C130 to newer platform , with out excess need of world domination then go for Globemaster


Here is the interior of the A400M transport






vs the C130 cockpit ... all dials and analog stuff - clutter



Transport units are back bone to a military operation , even if you win one battle unless youc an back up your troops , with supplies and equipment in time, you can't win the over all war - sorta speak

The most recent example is the constant pain Pakistani army has to go thru to move troops from east of border to west and back again , I can image it must be an expensive pratice to move all the vehicles, troops and weapons from one side of broder to another...

I do feel Pakistan need to bring in fresh , 10-14 Transport planes
so we can move 3,000 troops easily if needed per hour to any loation in Pakistan

Not to mentionthese units can also serve as Movable Hospitals , in case of earth quackes and other natural desasters and these planes are rugged enough to land on dirt airports

[BlackenTheSky]

I also heard that india is looking to buy c 17 globemaster.

[pak-yes]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009
then it proves that still C-130 is still the best option.we dont need long range transports unless we plan to defend Saudi Arabia.C-130 will still be 4:1 in a war these transports are the most vulnerable so they instead of quality in this field we should opt for quantity.And even if then PAF wanna buy some fancy transport then we should go for C-5 Galaxy instead of C-17 Global Master or A400M.C-5 Price ranges from 160 mils to 180 mils dollars and look at its capacity not only it is cheaper than C-17(and probably cheaper than A400M final price).but also has 769,000 pounds versus 585,000 pounds of global master.

[BATMAN]

I also heard that india is looking to buy c 17 globemaster.

you have good connections with indians?

Any i how i will support a low cost and smaller air frame solution for Pakarmy and KC 390 seems suitable.
I believe Pak army need not to move around many tanks rather a personal carrier or one two tank at maximum on our active northern fronts.

[Mark Sien]

PAF will have to contemplate replacing its C-130s after 2015, and I think the Embraer KC-390 would be a better mainstay option. The A400M may be a suitable higher-payload & capacity, but only when it's apparent that the high cost is worth the system - which we won't know until after 2020.

However, the Chinese Y-20 may be the better option in this case:

http://cnair.top81.cn/Il-76_Y-8X_H-6U.htm

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well

Currently we have 36 , 130 Hercules

Obviously from 60's , these planes are old , their avionics are old, the pilots have to wear those , big ear phones to protect their hearing , as the planes are super noisy

What is the Size of our Army ? 500,000 Troops to 1 Million Troops

So , imagine a scenario where we need to move our troops

1 Hercules can may be move 100 soliders , at a time , also we might need to re assign air defence units in different cities , so military transport units are indeed vital part of any army , not just to defence some 3rd party country.

The only problem with old Hercules 130 is their age, every plane , after certain number of years looses its credibility - which yes the
C 130 has served us well , but it would not hurt to have 36 newer models which can airlift twice the much , as a old C130 could using 50% less fuel for its flight.

I would imagine it would be easier to hook up our newer air transport systems to our awacs and command center then old C130


C-5 Galaxy -> Its an old plane , very large and limited producted
40 crafts for US, and 60 are on stand by for its use


So I doubt we will get these


Globe Master US has 200 Globe Master , they can move troops easily in 1 day from US to Australia for example 10,000-20,000 which is a great tactical capability, 1 trip for all its globe masters.

The craft is very expensiev 200 Million a pop ....!!!


Now, we have two options the A400M which can move similar amount of soliders and it can move 2 tigre helicopters inside it or
or 4 Military jeeps or 3-4 Armored personnel carriers etc or 1 Artilery item etc


Range Wise - the A400M & Globe Master are comparable
Maximum distance with out refueling , direct flight. While A400M is cheaper (and Newer plane) Globe Master is plane form 90's almost 20 years old, so from technical stand point , the technology used in
A400M will be TOP of the line


Also an advantage that A400M has , is the low cost of maintenence, and fuel to run it so every time it will fly the Army will save $$ money on the flight which comes into a factor when plane stays with army for 20-30 years (New plane of course)

The embrare KC 390, is an early stage plane not even tested only 1 nation is supporting it and its brazil , also the plane is 2 engines, what if one of the engines fail ? Will that plane stay in air??

At least wit te A400M you have 4 independent engines to keep the important payload safely in air - so that is a point to consider -


>Also the plane flies at higt altitues 37,000 feet


A modern Transport , solution for Pakistan could be

a) 8 A400M for Pakistan Army
(1 is converted to Redcross or crecent /Hopital)
(1 is converted for Humanitarian Project Support)

The 8 ~ A400M would be equal to having 16 C130

b) 4 Support KC390 from brazil , can be tested out
with brazil


c) 30 C130 Planes can be gradually phased out in 15 years time.

[ice_man]

why is everyone forgetting that we bought the CASA CN-235 that we bought for small troop transport! however, our major issue lies in transporting HEAVY military hardware!

we need to buy transport planes soon! i know it will hurt our airforces budget alot but we need to do it once & we can relax for another 3 decades!

the best option would be to go for C-130J's...we can persuade the US to give it to us as part of an aid package for troop movements to our western borders! but asking for a Globe master would be pushing it!

[Stealth]

Global Master best for Pakistan!

[pak-yes]

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C-5 Galaxy -> Its an old plane , very large and limited producted
40 crafts for US, and 60 are on stand by for its use

I dont think your numbers are right.C-5 galaxy is more than C-17 global master.The total numbers of C-5 are 222 and the total number of global masters are 174(According to offical USAF website).The only advantage the global master offers is its global range which pakistan does not need.And it it balanced by the capacity of galaxy which is almost 200,000 pounds greater than global master also the price is less.so our first priority should still be C-130 and if still we want big transports C-5 is our choice not A400M.The only problem with C-5 is America.

we could use KC 390 but problem is they are not tested yet and only 1 nation which does not have previous record in aircraft manufacturing is supporting it so we can not take the risk.

Russian AN-12 is also but out of question.That leaves Y-20.

Also it is to be decided wether our airforce wants tactical transports or strategic transports.If we want tactical transports which can be used in battlefield which i think we need than there are only 2 in category.C-130 or Y-20 or Y-9(if we like to go extremely cheap) and also to some extent KC 390 if it can prove it self worthy.On the other hand if we need long range huge burden beasts than C-5 is best.