The Mighty Su-35 Has No Friends

[hasnain0099]

July 29, 2010: Russia is hustling to find export customers for its latest Su-30 model, the Su-35. The Russian Air Force will receive the first of these later this year, and export customers have been promised early delivery. There are few takers so far. There's just too much competition out there, from late model F-15s and F-16s, plus Rafale, Eurofighter and Gipen. The U.S. F-35 is on the way as well.

That said, the Su-35 is an impressive piece of work. It’s pitched as more reliable and durable than past Russian fighters, good for 6,000 flight hours (compared to 2,500-4,000 hours for earlier models). The big selling points are the sensors. There is a phased array radar that can spot large targets (like B-52s or AWACS) at up to 400 kilometers, and an infrared (heat sensing) passive radar with a range of 80 kilometers. The active radar can also track targets on the ground and use smart bombs. The Su-35 is more maneuverable than earlier Su-30 types

At one point, the Su-35 was touted as competition for the F-22. It isn't, that competition would be the PAK-FA, which had its first flight earlier this year. There are only three prototypes of the Su-35, and one of those crashed last year. The cause was a problem with one of the two engines. Russia had hoped to have the destroyed prototype fly over the May Day parade in Moscow on May 1st. The crash was really bad PR, since one of the consistent shortcomings of Russian warplanes has been the unreliable engines.

Two years ago, the Su-35 had its first flight. Progress has been slow. The Su-35 has been in development since the 1990s. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. Since the 1990s, two different Su-35 prototypes were built. There were many disagreements over what direction the development should take, and by the late 1990s, the project was basically suspended for lack of funding.

The Su-35 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the original, 33 ton, Su-27, and has much better electronics. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16. The larger size of the Su-27/35, allows designers to do a lot more with it in terms of modifications and enhancements. The Su-35 will carry a 30mm autocannon (with 150 rounds) and up to eight tons of munitions, hanging from 12 hard points.

Russia's effort to develop an F-22 class fighter (the PAK FA) is going to require a lot of work. The prototype, that took its first flight recently, was clearly the basic Su-27 airframe modified to be stealthier. This included changing the shape of the aircraft to be less radar reflective, and providing internal bays for bombs and missiles. But there's much more to do in order to achieve anything close to the stealthiness of the F-22. It took fifteen years for the F-22 to go from initial flight, to entering service. The PAK FA could proceed faster, learning from the F-22 experience (especially if some of the Internet based espionage carried out in the last decade was Russian). But such development speed has not been a Russian characteristic.

Another problem is the engines, which were not ready for the first flight. Older model engines were used, because initial flights are mainly to confirm the basic airworthiness of the airframe. The new engines, also being used in the Su-35, are suffering development problems. The Russians have always had difficulties with their high end military engines, and that tradition continues. Currently, the Russians say it will take several years to perfect the new engine.

Russia will also need a new family of air-to-air missiles, as the current ones are too large for the internal bays on the PAK FA prototype. These are already in the works, along with more compact versions of air-to-surface missiles. There are also problems with the electronics and, well, you get the picture.

[Tshering22]

Originally Posted by hasnain0099

July 29, 2010: Russia is hustling to find export customers for its latest Su-30 model, the Su-35. The Russian Air Force will receive the first of these later this year, and export customers have been promised early delivery. There are few takers so far. There's just too much competition out there, from late model F-15s and F-16s, plus Rafale, Eurofighter and Gipen. The U.S. F-35 is on the way as well.

That said, the Su-35 is an impressive piece of work. It’s pitched as more reliable and durable than past Russian fighters, good for 6,000 flight hours (compared to 2,500-4,000 hours for earlier models). The big selling points are the sensors. There is a phased array radar that can spot large targets (like B-52s or AWACS) at up to 400 kilometers, and an infrared (heat sensing) passive radar with a range of 80 kilometers. The active radar can also track targets on the ground and use smart bombs. The Su-35 is more maneuverable than earlier Su-30 types

At one point, the Su-35 was touted as competition for the F-22. It isn't, that competition would be the PAK-FA, which had its first flight earlier this year. There are only three prototypes of the Su-35, and one of those crashed last year. The cause was a problem with one of the two engines. Russia had hoped to have the destroyed prototype fly over the May Day parade in Moscow on May 1st. The crash was really bad PR, since one of the consistent shortcomings of Russian warplanes has been the unreliable engines.

Two years ago, the Su-35 had its first flight. Progress has been slow. The Su-35 has been in development since the 1990s. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. Since the 1990s, two different Su-35 prototypes were built. There were many disagreements over what direction the development should take, and by the late 1990s, the project was basically suspended for lack of funding.

The Su-35 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the original, 33 ton, Su-27, and has much better electronics. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16. The larger size of the Su-27/35, allows designers to do a lot more with it in terms of modifications and enhancements. The Su-35 will carry a 30mm autocannon (with 150 rounds) and up to eight tons of munitions, hanging from 12 hard points.

Russia's effort to develop an F-22 class fighter (the PAK FA) is going to require a lot of work. The prototype, that took its first flight recently, was clearly the basic Su-27 airframe modified to be stealthier. This included changing the shape of the aircraft to be less radar reflective, and providing internal bays for bombs and missiles. But there's much more to do in order to achieve anything close to the stealthiness of the F-22. It took fifteen years for the F-22 to go from initial flight, to entering service. The PAK FA could proceed faster, learning from the F-22 experience (especially if some of the Internet based espionage carried out in the last decade was Russian). But such development speed has not been a Russian characteristic.

Another problem is the engines, which were not ready for the first flight. Older model engines were used, because initial flights are mainly to confirm the basic airworthiness of the airframe. The new engines, also being used in the Su-35, are suffering development problems. The Russians have always had difficulties with their high end military engines, and that tradition continues. Currently, the Russians say it will take several years to perfect the new engine.

Russia will also need a new family of air-to-air missiles, as the current ones are too large for the internal bays on the PAK FA prototype. These are already in the works, along with more compact versions of air-to-surface missiles. There are also problems with the electronics and, well, you get the picture.

Venezuela is interested in these as Chavez wanted more Sukhois for the Venezuelan air force. It was reported in RIA Novosti some weeks back. Considering him splurging oil money on Russian defense firms recently, he'd definitely go for the Su-35BMs.

Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Cuba and perhaps North Korea are other viable customers. We already ordered 42 additional Su30 MKIs with a promise of similar upgrades due in 2012-14 from Pogosyan so the BMs are out of question for now.. although we'd do fine with 2 squardrons of this but that'd be too much diversity.

China's focusing on J-11B and J-10B so it won't take. Too bad it doesn't come with Naval modifications; we'd asked for Su-33 in our RFI few months back but the production line was closed and Su-35BM is strictly a land based fighter. If they could make it into a carrier-fighter, I think IN would take it.

The bold part is absolute nonsense considering that Mikhail Pogosyan said the S117 engine prototype is upto mark with a few changes required. Russians are pioneers in propulsion tech dude. Engine problems would be the last thing they'd have.. except maybe modify them for less signature on enemy radars.

[somebozo]

One of the primary problem to selling Russian jets is their large and bulky ground support equipment. Often designed as non modular can only be transport as a whole by heavy lift air craft or ground vehicles. Unlike the american and western ones which can be stripped down to important modules only for emergency or remote usage.

[anathema]

Originally Posted by somebozo

One of the primary problem to selling Russian jets is their large and bulky ground support equipment. Often designed as non modular can only be transport as a whole by heavy lift air craft or ground vehicles. Unlike the american and western ones which can be stripped down to important modules only for emergency or remote usage.

^^ Not true. Russian A/c's are as modular as it comes- This is very evident from the Su 30 MKI , SU 30 MKM projects. Avionics from multiple nations were fitted and assembled on the a/c.

The main problem of Russian a/c as author rightly pointed out is Engine quality/maintenance visa vi western compatriots. This is its Achilles heels.

[ptldM3]

Originally Posted by anathema

^^ Not true. Russian A/c's are as modular as it comes- This is very evident from the Su 30 MKI , SU 30 MKM projects. Avionics from multiple nations were fitted and assembled on the a/c.

The main problem of Russian a/c as author rightly pointed out is Engine quality/maintenance visa vi western compatriots. This is its Achilles heels.

That was the case a long ago, but as of today modern Russian engines have long service lives and require less maintainance, ask yourself this, in the 13 years of India operating the SU-30 how many SU-30's have crashed due to engine problems? Zero i beleive.

I'm also willing to bet that this artcal is from strategy page

[Karthic Sri]

Originally Posted by Tshering22

Too bad it doesn't come with Naval modifications; we'd asked for Su-33 in our RFI few months back but the production line was closed and Su-35BM is strictly a land based fighter. If they could make it into a carrier-fighter, I think IN would take it.

I dont think so.Neither of our ACs have the capacity to operate the larger Su 33s.
Thats the main reason we went for the Naval Fulcrums.

Ant source to support ur post.?

[S-A-B-E-R->]

Originally Posted by somebozo

One of the primary problem to selling Russian jets is their large and bulky ground support equipment. Often designed as non modular can only be transport as a whole by heavy lift air craft or ground vehicles. Unlike the american and western ones which can be stripped down to important modules only for emergency or remote usage.

i agree the landing on highways is basically based on quick transport of support systems,,,thus they need to be light and quickly assembled and dissembled

[TorontoNoctis]

Originally Posted by Tershring22

Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Cuba and perhaps North Korea are other viable customers.

Nobody is going to buy Su-35. Yes countries are interested in Russian craft but mostly countries which would rather buy double or triple the amount of older models. Countries with the cash to buy Su-35 are going to wait for PAK FA or other advanced Russian craft and I believe its smart to do so. Instead of rushing a plane out, wait 5-10 years and see the F-22 and F-35 in action and learn from operational mistakes and experience. There is no rush; F-22 and F-35 are supposed to be around for 50 years so why not wait 10. Meanwhile third world shitholes like Ethopia love the older Su models. The Su-35 is seen (whether true or not) as a highly advanced and upgraded Su-27.

As for North Korea buying Su-35 what a joke. Let's ignore the political ramifications and consider what it would mean. North Korea's airforce has always highly favored MiGs, and certain air tactics. A MiG-21 could get a kill on an American teen series fighter with shoot and scoot. This is good for North Korea with its low flight hours. Su-35's main advantage is thrust vectoring and dog fighting, which requires many thousands of hours of flight experience, hours which North Korea cannot afford. North Korean pilots probably fly less than a few dozen hours a year, their elites a few hundred due to fuel problems. Finally what kills Su-35 for North Korea is range. They will never buy any fighter with extreme range due to potential for defection.

[Tshering22]

Originally Posted by Karthic Sri

I dont think so.Neither of our ACs have the capacity to operate the larger Su 33s.
Thats the main reason we went for the Naval Fulcrums.

Ant source to support ur post.?

You remember the thread where the navy had issued RFI for fighters onboard its carriers for the future? With Sea Gripen and all? It is mentioned in that thread.

[Tshering22]

Nobody is going to buy Su-35. Yes countries are interested in Russian craft but mostly countries which would rather buy double or triple the amount of older models. Countries with the cash to buy Su-35 are going to wait for PAK FA or other advanced Russian craft and I believe its smart to do so.

Yes but Vietnam recently changed that trend when it brought MKV2s with latest upgrades from Sukhoi. Venezuela has talked of getting the BMs once it starts being supplied to VVS. So basically the BM will have lesser customers than other Su-27 models but it will have alongside MiG-35. RAC is now 1 company so if they sell either models more, they still get the money.

And it doesn't depend on "countries with cash" that PAKFA will go to. How many people has USA sold the Raptor to? This is a sensitive project with top secret technologies at stake that cannot be simply sold out. I think the Su-35BM will get an upgrade like the F-15SE with internal weapons and AESA radars to dissuade customers from demanding the PAKFA. Su-35BM is the rival to F-15SE.

There's been a commitment of 500 total PAKFA/FGFA fighters so far according to the Sukhoi chairman---250 for VVS and 250 for IAF. Besides, at $100 million I doubt most regular Russian customers could afford it.

Instead of rushing a plane out, wait 5-10 years and see the F-22 and F-35 in action and learn from operational mistakes and experience. There is no rush; F-22 and F-35 are supposed to be around for 50 years so why not wait 10.

Agreeable, but the PAKFA project started during the last years of Soviet Union and is already a mature one. F-22 has already shown minor glitches which I am sure that Russian authorities might have noticed (industrial secrets). Though this might be problematic pieces but still it shows what problems we can possibly face. 50 years you say is too much; I doubt this would go beyond 2035.

Meanwhile third world shitholes like Ethopia love the older Su models. The Su-35 is seen (whether true or not) as a highly advanced and upgraded Su-27.

You might want to use a little decent language for the poorer countries. Every soldier whether from Canada or from Africa makes sacrifices to become what he is with what resources he has. Su-35BM is equivalent to Typhoon in many aspects barring super-cruise and has better multirole capabilities that Typhoon lacks. So to consider it superior or not is your choice.

The MK series are already nearing the end of their production line and therefore the BMs have better chance for future sale within the next 4-5 years.

As for North Korea buying Su-35 what a joke. Let's ignore the political ramifications and consider what it would mean. North Korea's airforce has always highly favored MiGs, and certain air tactics. A MiG-21 could get a kill on an American teen series fighter with shoot and scoot. This is good for North Korea with its low flight hours. Su-35's main advantage is thrust vectoring and dog fighting, which requires many thousands of hours of flight experience, hours which North Korea cannot afford.

Till now NK favoured MiGs just like Malays and Indonesians favoured F-16s but later the latters changed their fleet to Russian. However, you must know that BMs can be also used for 'shoot and scoot' missions. Its a true multirole platform with both speed and maneuverability and limited lower cross section due to special coatings. Even if they buy 1 squadron of Su-35s, that's a big challenge for SK.

I am only guessing. Besides, MiG-35 has also an equal choice of being chosen by N. Koreans because of its AESA (recently tested for MRCA) and 3D TVC.

North Korean pilots probably fly less than a few dozen hours a year, their elites a few hundred due to fuel problems. Finally what kills Su-35 for North Korea is range. They will never buy any fighter with extreme range due to potential for defection.

NK pilots can even defect in small range fighters because their country is so small. It only depends on the mindset. Pilots can simply defect to the West by landing in South Korea or Japan (both puppet states) which are both in the immediate neighbourhood. MiG-21s also cover the range easily. Hence, Su-35 or MiG-35 don't make any difference either to NK or to RAC sinve both models are under one company now revenue-wise.

But yeah everytime I look at Kim Jong Il I get a laugh . I wonder why does he always think around in war circles rather than treating his people like humans.

[BENNY]

Su-35 jetfighter plane: in 2010 the first sale abroad, according to forecasts of Rosoboronexport





WAPA) - This year's edition of "Farnborough" (London, July 19 to 25) also marks the announcement of the next export of the new Russian multi-role fighter aircraft Su-35, at least according to the statement yesterday by Alexandre Mikheiev, who in terms of sales abroad knows something, being general director of Rosoboronexport, the Russian government agency in charge of exporting defense equipment of various kinds, including aircraft, helicopters and weapons. "We hope the first export contract of Su-35 will be signed by 2010", he told the press. "Russia has already designed a draft agreement with Libya" and other countries are interested in purchasing.

Designed for air superiority and capable of destroying targets on land and ships in any weather, the Su-35 has a fifth-generation technology that endows it with excellent flight performance. The aircraft can hold up to 8200 kg of weapons carried under 14 points of attack.

Curious history of the project, later merged with the Sukhoi Su-37, so that all prototypes were renamed Su-37: ironically, it seems that for lack of funds in the subsequent growth of the Su-37 has been cancelled and that the only two specimens produced were then in turn converted into Su-35. (Avionews)



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa

[BENNY]

[BENNY]

[Nishan_101]

its really a nice machine and there would be more customers of it in Muslim World but they should produce these in the right quality manner. And for the Indians who placed an RFI to Russian for Su-33 ......i asked that why they didn't went for the Su-30MKIs Carrier Borne version which could easily be done by the Sukhois help and they could make it not only for Admirirl Vikram Adatiya but also for the IAC-1/2/&3.

[match]

I think main problem behind this is absence of AESA radar ...

I may be wrong ????