Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

[Aeronaut]

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Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad is not a fair "versus" comparison at all .... both men were great in their own way , had some common ideologies/goals and some conflicting ideologies/goals ... both stood for peaceful fight to drive out British , but difference being Jinnah wanted separate state for Muslims and Azad wanted people of all religion to stay together as one !

Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity.

Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed - it was bound to.

[Oscar]

Ground realities depict a different picture....ofcourse we can agree to disagree.

Ground realities are based on perception.

As one senior Indian member famously said.. "we are here to give you a reality check".
And here is one person who has family as part of those happy seeing their "show boys" perform...who will sell devalued property just so that they can live on rent in posh apartments.
While that rent is coming.. and while the landlords allow it.
A rather vague statement I admit.. but one with a wide scope if you may expand upon it.

[Nitin Goyal]

Jinnah was enlightened - Azad was under a delusion - Jinnah is hero & azad was a perverted man who believed in the idea of Hindu Muslim Unity.

Im sure gentleman's soul would be repenting on his miscalculations -- after Babri Mosque - Gujrat massacres - Kashmiri mass graves. I am sure if he was alive today he would have no shame in saying that in the battle of Two Nation Theory VS Hindu Muslim Unity theory -- later is totally failed !

hmmmm...1971... east pakistan ...sound any bell dear ????

Ground realities are based on perception.

As one senior Indian member famously said.. "we are here to give you a reality check".
And here is one person who has family as part of those happy seeing their "show boys" perform...who will sell devalued property just so that they can live on rent in posh apartments.
While that rent is coming.. and while the landlords allow it.
A rather vague statement I admit.. but one with a wide scope if you may expand upon it.

let me tell you a fact...he was the youngest president of Indian national congress in 1923.

[Oscar]

hmmmm...1971... east pakistan ...sound any bell dear ????



let me tell you a fact...he was the youngest president of Indian national congress in 1923.

Fairly unrelated example.. since that area was never meant to be part of a larger state in the original vision anyway.
And if there was Hindu-Muslim Unity.. why did you guys not absorb Bangladesh there and then?
And why are you having difficulty now.. you have all the resources if not for those Muslims wishing that they not be enslaved.. Muslims that are labelled as "razakars" even though their parents fought to gain independence from Pakistan.

You are confusing a racial issue with a communal one.

Azad's presidency was somewhat better than Hamid Karzai's.. I must agree.. since he actually did formulate some policies.
But its symbolism was pretty much the same.

[Pakistanisage]

Thanks for showing your twisted mindset once more - there is no expense is it?

Aeronaut , why did you even bother to start the thread if you are not open to any opposing ideas ?

When you start a thread on the historical aspects you have to be atleast open to opposing ideas to see if they have any validity.

Intellectual discussions only flourish under open forums that do not try to intimidate opposing ideas being expressed.

People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.

Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back up his contentions.

[lem34]

The Quaid was President of the Indian Congress whilst Nehru was in shorts he realised that Pakistan was the only way because of his experience.

[Nitin Goyal]

Fairly unrelated example.. since that area was never meant to be part of a larger state in the original vision anyway.
And if there was Hindu-Muslim Unity.. why did you guys not absorb Bangladesh there and then?
And why are you having difficulty now.. you have all the resources if not for those Muslims wishing that they not be enslaved.. Muslims that are labelled as "razakars" even though their parents fought to gain independence from Pakistan.

You are confusing a racial issue with a communal one.

Azad's presidency was somewhat better than Hamid Karzai's.. I must agree.. since he actually did formulate some policies.
But its symbolism was pretty much the same.

I don't know why you people have the fantasy of him having a show man..

Jinnah's idea failed in 1971 when PA killed her own muslim brothers in BD. The talk of ummah failed at that very moment. We have keep india united but can't say the same for Pakistan. the things happening in balouchistan, gilgit baltistan are testimony to this.

@mods...can you please delete few posts of pakistani members who are embarrassing themselves. Thanks.

[Oscar]

People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.

There should be freedom of expression as long as it does not cross limits.
A fondness for the Maulana does not.
Racial undertones in personal attacks do cross limits and will be punished severely.

[lem34]

Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back his contentions.

But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed

[Nitin Goyal]

But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed

really ??? how many got killed in riots in past decade ? can you tell me ?

[Pakistanisage]

But he was of course wrong. Muslims in India are facing discrimination there can be no argument today. Even as a bigger minority we would still have faced these issues if Pakistan had not been formed

My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population. That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.

[Oscar]

I don't know why you people have the fantasy of him having a show man..

Jinnah's idea failed in 1971 when PA killed her own muslim brothers in BD. The talk of ummah failed at that very moment. We have keep india united but can't say the same for Pakistan. the things happening in balouchistan, gilgit baltistan are testimony to this.

@mods...can you please delete few posts of pakistani members who are embarrassing themselves. Thanks.

Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..
But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..
And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.

My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population. That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.

Hence the fact that it was not tolerable.. the idea of having Muslims actually being meaningful in the Indian state.

Again.. the idea is not that Hindus and Muslims cannot co-exist.. they can.. they do .. all over the world.. in communities where neither has a say in policies.
BUT.. when it comes to the exertion of a voice.. the seat of power..The co-existence is impossible unless one side is completely suppressed.

[Aeronaut]

Aeronaut , why did you even bother to start the thread if you are not open to any opposing ideas ?

When you start a thread on the historical aspects you have to be atleast open to opposing ideas to see if they have any validity.

Intellectual discussions only flourish under open forums that do not try to intimidate opposing ideas being expressed.

People that try to muffle the sound of opposing ideas usually are intellectually bankrupt and are afraid they do not have the weight of logic on their side.

Whether you like Abul Kalam Azad or not he was an intellectual who presented strong arguments to back his contentions.

Thanks for your concerns , any specific intelligent questions ?

[Nitin Goyal]

Here you again.. bringing in racial oppression and national identity issues to divert from a topic on religious identity.
What religious identity , cultural carry over do Indian Muslims have?
The Arjun? the Sharuya? the Agni? the Arihant? there are all parts of ancient pre-Islamic culture..
But as if a simple middle finger to the Muslims and their presence and rule over the Indian Subcontinent have been flushed down the drain. The only thing left for them to identify with are representations of them as Terrorists, Gangsters and the occasional sidekick..
And to add insult to Injury(not that they'll ever notice since they are too must trying to scream Vande mataram so that they fit in).. "Muslim" showboy actors are asked to play such roles.. perhaps a sweetner in the form of representations as lovers(mostly Muslim girls), Middle class extras and the ever growing usage of sacred spiritually oriented scripture degenerated as romantic or ridiculous expression.

your argument are verbose and confusing....

I can throw all of your argument out of window in a single stroke but i find it worthless.

I come to your basic premise of him being a show boy....

I understand your problem...this is because of the difference in political setup in India and pakistan. As you have been rules under military dictatorship for so long that you have been conditioned that you think that only few people are the rulers and rest of them are show boys.. In India it doesn't work that way. As you have accused pf him being a show boy...prove it....

As far as bollywood is concerned you people are one of the biggest fan of it.....I guess it again failed the two nation theory

[lem34]

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My dear Aryan, if there was no Pakistan, Indian Muslims would have been nearly 40% of India's Population. That was Nehru's worst nightmare and Jinnah did solve Nehru's " Muslim Problem " . Four out of ten Indians would have been Muslims and no Indian could ever become a PM without Muslim vote. Today 13.65% of Indians are muslims and the Indian Politicians do somersaults to vy for Muslim vote.

They may well somersault for the vote but I live in the UK and I have faced discrimination. But I know one country that I belong to that no matter what I face I will not face discrimination on the basis of religion.

Oh and I think there were 40% Muslims in Bosnia and we know what happened there