Top Indian Myths about Pakistan!

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Myth 1.
Pakistan lost all 3 wars with India.

Pakistan and India have fought 3 wars - 1948, 1965 and 1971.

Barring 1971 (which occurred while a civil war, assisted by India, was raging in East Pakistan), no war has resulted in a decisive 'victory' for either side.

Myth 2.
Pakistan fights through proxies

Well, this is true. Pakistan has supported Kashmiri Freedom fighters in Indian Occupied Kashmir, and did support the Mujahideen (with US and Saudi support) and later the Taliban.

However, this allegation by Indians completely overlooks India's own long association with proxy groups.

1. Supported proxies that destabilized East Pakistan for many years leading into 1971
2. Supported the LTTE (Tamil Tigers) - a terrorist organization in Sri Lanka
3. Supported the Northern Alliance - a group of warlords and criminals in Afghanistan
4. Supported Baluch insurgents in Pakistan

Myth 3.
India has never committed aggression against Pakistan, or any other country.
This is clearly not the case as seen below

1. Support for insurgents in East Pakistan leding into 1971 and the ensuing war
2. Support for the LTTE (a terrorist organization in Sri Lanka) against the Sri Lankan State
3. The invasion of Siachen in 1984 in clear violation of the Simla Accord
4. Support for the Baluch insurgency

Myth 4.
Pakistan spends 70% (or more, depending upon the Indian) of its budget on Defense.

Pakistan's defence budget for 2009 was about 4.4 billion USD. With a GDP of about 160 billion USD and a budget of 33 billion USD, that works out to be about 2.75% of GDP and 13.3% of the total budget.
PAKISTAN'S TOTAL OUTLAY IN 2007-08 BUDGET TO BE ABOUT US$33 BLN. | Goliath Business News

This compares with an Indian defence budget of about 26 billion that is 14.4% of the total budget and about 2.3% - so what's the big deal with Pakistan's defence budget?

Myth 5.
Pakistani politics is dominated by Kashmir

This argument goes along the lines of 'the Army/leadership makes sure that the only thing Pakistanis are aware of is Kashmir, and in this way distracts them from socio-economic issues and avoids investing in development'.

No doubt most Pakistanis are aware of Kashmir, but the fact that we have cutthroat national politics, with political parties that have significant ideological differences, it is absurd to suggest that the only issue mentioned during stump speeches is 'Kashmir'.

Most of the PR and advertisements run by Pakistani political parties in fact focus on providing development and bringing about prosperity, not Kashmir. Most politicians talk about providing, jobs, investment etc. and most Pakistanis vote on that basis - even when voting on biraadri lines since they believe 'their guy' will provide them with economic opportunity/favors.

The political process in Pakistan remains largely driven by issues that are important to most people elsewhere in the world - jobs, inflation, development etc.

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Feel free to offer suggestions on changes, additions, improvements and I'll incorporate them if I think they are appropriate.

[fateh71]

Myth 2 is not a myth at all as admitted by AM.

Also, don't know anyone who believes 4.

About defence spending, the last published data shows Pakistan spent much more than budgeted on defence, a good 27% higher

Defence spending exceeds budgetary allocation

About 1965 war, it would be interesting to get % of people in India and Pakistan who think their country won that war.

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by fateh71

Myth 2 is not a myth at all as admitted by AM.

Right, but its typically argued as if India's hands are clean, and therefore deserves to be up there.

I mean what's the point behind so many Indians raising the issue then?

Also, don't know anyone who believes 4.

Plenty of Indians at least, and a few Westerners. have countered a few people just on this forum in the last month alone.

[rokhanyousafzai]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM

Myth 1.
Pakistan lost all 3 wars with India.

Pakistan and India have fought 3 wars - 1948, 1965 and 1971.

Barring 1971 (which occurred while a civil war, assisted by India, was raging in East Pakistan), no war has resulted in a decisive 'victory' for either side.

this myth is most seen on youtube videos and some intellectually challenged say 5 wars pakistan have lost on another note have you read 'the betrayal of east pakistan'

[ajpirzada]

another possible myth.

Pakistan is only slightly better than afghanistah and also look kind of similar. thats wat many of my indian friends here told me

[rokhanyousafzai]

Originally Posted by ajpirzada

another possible myth.

Pakistan is only slightly better than afghanistah and also look kind of similar. thats wat many of my indian friends here told me

like the country or the people. Believe me the northern areas of pakistan are the the most beautiful in the subcontinent and our cities are beautiful not in the sense of skyscrapers but its alive and the people and the lovely parks and that atmosphere that u miss away from home

[wtf]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM

-

Pakistan's defence budget for 2009 was about 4.4 billion USD. With a GDP of about 160 billion USD and a budget of 33 billion USD, that works out to be about 2.75% of GDP and 13.3% of the total budget.
PAKISTAN'S TOTAL OUTLAY IN 2007-08 BUDGET TO BE ABOUT US$33 BLN. | Goliath Business News

This compares with an Indian defence budget of about 26 billion that is 14.4% of the total budget and about 2.3% - so what's the big deal with Pakistan's defence budget?

Pakistani budget is only $19Billion (Pak Rs 1549 Billion)
http://www.finance.gov.pk/admin/imag...udgetbrief.pdf
And defense spending is approximately one fourth of the amount in the original. This does not include "Public order and safety affairs".
After borrowing another 250Billion rupees and with a planned shortfall (the revised section), defense still is a good 17% of the budget.

And your estimates of 14% spending in Indian budget is wrong too. It is about 10-11%. http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2008-09/ubmain.htm

So in summary it is 17-27% for Pakistan versus 10-11% for India. Not claiming that it is "a big deal", but if you are going myth busting you should use primary sources.

[ajpirzada]

Originally Posted by rokhanyousafzai

like the country or the people. Believe me the northern areas of pakistan are the the most beautiful in the subcontinent and our cities are beautiful not in the sense of skyscrapers but its alive and the people and the lovely parks and that atmosphere that u miss away from home

country.
ya i miss every sec i spent in pakistan. just waitin for my studies to finish and htem im gonna go back to serve my Pakistan

[wtf]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM

Right, but its typically argued as if India's hands are clean, and therefore deserves to be up there.

That would make the so called Myth 2 and your Myth 3 the same. Why double count ?

[Nemesis]

Explain to me how asserting the Pakistani position is somehow equivalent to challenging myths?

Supported the Northern Alliance - a group of warlords and criminals in Afghanistan

Yeah, against the Taliban!!

[Sprint]

Originally Posted by rokhanyousafzai

this myth is most seen on youtube videos and some intellectually challenged say 5 wars pakistan have lost on another note have you read 'the betrayal of east pakistan'

So you admit what AAK Niazi told about in "'The betrayal of east pakistan" is correct to the letter and spirit. If so read it one more time it would give you better insight.

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by wtf

Pakistani budget is only $19Billion (Pak Rs 1549 Billion)
http://www.finance.gov.pk/admin/imag...udgetbrief.pdf
And defense spending is approximately one fourth of the amount in the original. This does not include "Public order and safety affairs".
After borrowing another 250Billion rupees and with a planned shortfall (the revised section), defense still is a good 17% of the budget.

The 'budget in brief' document states Pakistan's expenditure for 2009 to be approx. 2010 billion Rs. That would make the 275 billion defence budget approximately 13.6% of the total budget.

If you include the entire additional amount of 75 billion for military procurements, the defence budget becomes 17.4%. The budget document however reflects Defence spending as 290 - so I am not sure if that additional 75 billion was pared down and included in the final budget of 290.

Going by the budget document alone, defence spending is 14.4% of the total budget. In any case, far lower than the 'two thirds or 70%' canard often raised by Indians - thats the point. It's not a thread on the Pakistani budget.

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by wtf

That would make the so called Myth 2 and your Myth 3 the same. Why double count ?

They are not the same:

1. Pakistan fights through proxies (India has done the same so why bother raising that point)

2. India has always been peaceful and never committed aggression against Pakistan or any other country (shown to be false as well).

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Explain to me how asserting the Pakistani position is somehow equivalent to challenging myths?

Correction -stating the facts is equivalent to challenging myths.

Yeah, against the Taliban!!

Everyone can claim 'valid national security/interest' reasons for supporting proxies.

The point is that India supported and used proxies to further its interests, as did Pakistan, so blaming Pakistan for it alone is disingenuous.

[wtf]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM

Myth 5.
Pakistani politics is dominated by Kashmir[/U][/B]

This argument goes along the lines of 'the Army/leadership makes sure that the only thing Pakistanis are aware of is Kashmir, and in this way distracts them from socio-economic issues and avoids investing in development'.

No doubt most Pakistanis are aware of Kashmir, but the fact that we have cutthroat national politics, with political parties that have significant ideological differences, it is absurd to suggest that the only issue mentioned during stump speeches is 'Kashmir'.

Most of the PR and advertisements run by Pakistani political parties in fact focus on providing development and bringing about prosperity, not Kashmir. Most politicians talk about providing, jobs, investment etc. and most Pakistanis vote on that basis - even when voting on biraadri lines since they believe 'their guy' will provide them with economic opportunity/favors.

The political process in Pakistan remains largely driven by issues that are important to most people elsewhere in the world - jobs, inflation, development etc.

I agree that this is a belief I personally have held /possibly still do (just not the way you describe it). One of the reasons for this is the repeated statements by Nawaz Sharief/Musharraf that people of Pakistan won't let me settle Kashmir issue. Or that this is the "central issue"

The way I understand it is that if there is a party that offers 15% GDP growth and making LoC the international border and another party that offers 0% growth to economy while maintaining status quo in Kashmir, people will always pick option 2. Since everyone knows this, the only position offered to Pakistani people is option 2.

Now cost of option 2 vs option 1 is debatable. It clearly does not
cost Pakistan a 15% growth rate decrease, but it is still not zero either. (Neither is it for India).

Another reason for my belief is the way Pakistan was actively losing areas in the West while trying to gain land in the East. The troops should have been in the West for a long time since land was being lost to Taliban, but Pakistan delayed because Kashmir was more important than NWFP.