Akbar and other Mughals

[iajdani]

Originally Posted by Khajur

I still believe no person in the world would change his own religion if tourtured by people of other religions ...it would've logical to understand if some lower cast dalit changes his religion due to upper cast opression...but why Buddists would think up leaving Buddism even if they were tortured...by hindus?? its very non plausible explanation.

I just came across this article.
The History of Ancient Bengal, Part 2
See how cast system and orthodox bhraminism was rejected by Bengalis to begin with. It was never accepted, so there is no question of lower caste people accepting Islam in large numbers.

[Halaku Khan]

Originally Posted by iajdani

I just came across this article.
The History of Ancient Bengal, Part 2
See how cast system and orthodox bhraminism was rejected by Bengalis to begin with. It was never accepted, so there is no question of lower caste people accepting Islam in large numbers.

That article relies on the Aryan invasion/migration theory, which has now been discredited by modern genetic studies. See The peopling of India - Pragati

[Khajur]

Originally Posted by iajdani

I just came across this article.
The History of Ancient Bengal, Part 2
See how cast system and orthodox bhraminism was rejected by Bengalis to begin with. It was never accepted, so there is no question of lower caste people accepting Islam in large numbers.

First u assert, its the casteless Buddist majority of old Bengal till 1170 who flourished under Pala dynasty for several centuries... who later accepted islam...Now u say there were largre numbers of lower caste people accepted islam

Now the big question still unanswered why Buddist left their owm religion and converted to islam??

" See how cast system and orthodox bhraminism was rejected by Bengalis to begin with "


Horse crap...dont forget there are nearly six crores of Bengalis,very happy to be hindus who live in West Bengal, besides some more in states like Tripura and else where including Bdesh.Infact there were so many hindu Benagalis out there ,that original Bengal was equally divided into two parts during the partition of india in 1947..

[iajdani]

Originally Posted by Khajur

First u assert, its the casteless Buddist majority of old Bengal till 1170 who flourished under Pala dynasty for several centuries... who later accepted islam...Now u say there were largre numbers of lower caste people accepted islam

Now the big question still unanswered why Buddist left their owm religion and converted to islam??

" See how cast system and orthodox bhraminism was rejected by Bengalis to begin with "


Horse crap...dont forget there are nearly six crores of Bengalis,very happy to be hindus who live in West Bengal, besides some more in states like Tripura and else where including Bdesh.Infact there were so many hindu Benagalis out there ,that original Bengal was equally divided into two parts during the partition of india in 1947..

Yes it was castless Buddhist who accepted the Islam as well as castfull hindus too. Once a Buddhist majority region (by the end of Mahipal) became Buddhist nil, where did those Buddha follower gone? Again by the end of Senas the region was Hindu majority yet a significant number of Buddhist remained who accepted Islam.
Those Hindus who did not accpet Islam still remained as Happy Hindu under their cast system in Bangladesh, West Bengal and in reamining India.

My point was that the significant number of People in Bengal never accepted cast system brought about by Orthodox Bhraminism because Buddhism in this region was older than these cast system.
Those enlightened people always ruled Bengal and later on accepted Islam as well.
Please refer to the article i posted above.

[iajdani]

Originally Posted by Halaku Khan

That article relies on the Aryan invasion/migration theory, which has now been discredited by modern genetic studies. See The peopling of India - Pragati

Ohh give me a break. I am equally proud of my both Davidian and Aryan root. Please refer that article somebody else who had a problem with their own root.

[Nemesis]

That article relies on the Aryan invasion/migration theory, which has now been discredited by modern genetic studies. See The peopling of India - Pragati

What nonsense. The aryan migration theory has only been discredited by right wingers in India who seem to believe that everything originated from India. Aryans originated from Central Asia. All archaeological evidence suggests this.

Reading this thread, i believe a lot of simplistic analysis has been done. While i agree with most points of PostColonial, his argument that India started declining under Mughal rule is too simplistic.

Yes, it is true there was very little scientific research under the great Mughals, so what? Science is no yardstick to judge a civilization. Hell even the European renaissance began with works of literature and art.

Under the Mughals, art, literature, architecture and trade flourished and major reforms in agriculture took place. It is only after Aurangzeb, India went into decline. Due to a combination of outrageously lavish spending by the later mughals and the constant wars they fought and the rise of European imperialism in India.

About the European renaissance that some are using as an argument against the Mughals, they are sadly misinformed. The Renaissance in Europe was not a result of "great scientific institutions" - they were none in Europe during the time of the great Mughals ( 1526 -1658). (The royal society in England was established only in 1660). The renaissance in Europe was a direct result of the fall of the Byzantine empire.

You see all the great intellectuals in Constantinople, rather than be killed by the Ottomans, decided to flee to Italy along with all important texts pertaining to the Roman empire. A rather wise choice. As a result Italy became the first nation to witness the "rebirth" of western civilization. Not patronage of scientific institutions by European monarchs or some sort of enlightenment they may have achieved during the middle ages, but rather fate/luck whatever you want to call it.

PS - To all those members who believe that India was developed by outsiders or civilization started in India after Muslim rule or some such rubbish, please read up real history. If you say such things outside your respective nations, you'll be laughed out of the building.

[Halaku Khan]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

What nonsense. The aryan migration theory has only been discredited by right wingers in India who seem to believe that everything originated from India. Aryans originated from Central Asia. All archaeological evidence suggests this.

Genetic diversity studies can indeed give a good idea about the direction of migrations. You seem to be unaware of the latest research. Even die-hard supporters of the Aryan Invasion theory have been forced to modify their stand. I will ignore your ad hominem remarks about "right wingers" etc.

[Halaku Khan]

Originally Posted by iajdani

Ohh give me a break. I am equally proud of my both Davidian and Aryan root. Please refer that article somebody else who had a problem with their own root.

There were various unscientific theories about Aryans that were proposed in the ninteenth century, but the scientific consensus has turned in the past few decades.

It's not an issue of pride or lack thereof.

[ice_man]

LOL the funniest things is PAKISTANIS don't want to be classified as INDIAN we will go to any extent to prove WE are not like U....and U indians will do anything to try and make yourself be in the same genetics as US!

[Nemesis]

Genetic diversity studies can indeed give a good idea about the direction of migrations. You seem to be unaware of the latest research. Even die-hard supporters of the Aryan Invasion theory have been forced to modify their stand. I will ignore your ad hominem remarks about "right wingers" etc.

Since i have no idea of the of the latest developments in Archaeo-genetics apparently - primarily a paper by Toomas Kivisild which is taken by members of the Hindu right in India and abroad as conclusive proof against Aryan migration - i will let experts refute it. Please feel free :-

Recent Findings in Archaeogenetics and Aryan Migration Theory

Some extracts -

The study by Kivisild et al primarily focused on the question of the original migration of the human race from Africa some 50,000 years ago, and as such was not meant to determine the question of Aryan origin that is said to have happened around 3,500 years back.

The above summary and attached documents are provided to demonstrate the selective promotion of research material by the supporters of Vedic Foundation and the Hindu Education Foundation and the suppression of other, more recently available research that undermines their thesis is reflective of their priorities in promoting their ideological agendas over a factual, methodical and unbiased study of history. Further, this desire by VF/HEF supporters to “prove” by any means that Aryans are “indigenous” people directly relate to their contemporary political agenda back in India of distinguishing the “indigenous Aryan Hindus” from “foreign Muslim and Christian invaders” and thereby characterizing India’s Muslim and Christian minorities as “traitors” that need to be marginalized and persecuted.

Yes, clearly I'm not informed of the "latest developments". Kindly drink the right wing kool aid somewhere else.

[Nemesis]

LOL the funniest things is PAKISTANIS don't want to be classified as INDIAN we will go to any extent to prove WE are not like U....and U indians will do anything to try and make yourself be in the same genetics as US!

That's probably because you - yes you, please don't generalize your entire populace - suffer from an acute case of inferiority complex. That mixed with brainwashing and reading half-baked history has led to your delusions.

[eastwatch]

Originally Posted by ice_man

LOL the funniest things is PAKISTANIS don't want to be classified as INDIAN we will go to any extent to prove WE are not like U....and U indians will do anything to try and make yourself be in the same genetics as US!

In a greater Hindustani empire, Afghanistan was always included in it. Like most other Provinces of Hindustan, Afghans also took care not to be mixed up genetically by marrying people from other areas. Even then, Afghanistan was a part of Hindustan. The area that comprises Pakistan was always a part of Hindustan - united or not - in the old time.

Today, the subcontinent is divided into three. But, many times it was divided into thirty. But, in union or in division we all remain basically Hindustani. We all have a shared history of many centuries and a separate history of only 60 years. Why to emphasize more on 60 years and less on many centuries?

[Jana]

Originally Posted by ice_man

LOL the funniest things is PAKISTANIS don't want to be classified as INDIAN we will go to any extent to prove WE are not like U....and U indians will do anything to try and make yourself be in the same genetics as US!

This is very simple ice. Most of the Punjabi Pakistanis have Indian roots.

Whereas NWFP has no link with any Indian roots. We are Aryans.


I dont know much about Sindh's natives so cant comment without research.


Most of the Indians try to claim that they are Aryans whereas they are not.


On a last note: whenever you become a Muslim there is no question of inferriority or superiority. We are equal simple as that and thats something which distinguish Islam from Hinduism.

[iajdani]

Originally Posted by ice_man

LOL the funniest things is PAKISTANIS don't want to be classified as INDIAN we will go to any extent to prove WE are not like U....and U indians will do anything to try and make yourself be in the same genetics as US!

No you are not right as Pakistani always consider themselves as being Indian with Arabian connection in them. Even Iranian sometimes try to show their Indian connection.

[toxic_pus]

Originally Posted by Jana

This is very simple ice. Most of the Punjabi Pakistanis have Indian roots.

Whereas NWFP has no link with any Indian roots. We are Aryans.


I dont know much about Sindh's natives so cant comment without research.


Most of the Indians try to claim that they are Aryans whereas they are not.


On a last note: whenever you become a Muslim there is no question of inferriority or superiority. We are equal simple as that and thats something which distinguish Islam from Hinduism.

Something for you to chew on.(Posted earlier)

In 2001-02 Mr Raheel Qamar et.al studied the y-chromosomal DNA variations among various ethnic groups of Pakistan. They studied 718 persons from 12 ethnic groups, including Pathans. They made certain interesting discoveries. They found, that there are 5 haplogroups that are common among almost all Pakistanis. Haplogroups 1, 2, 3, and 9 constitute about 79% of Pakistani population. Since these haplogroups are “frequent in western Asia and Europe but not in China or Japan”, it means that “Pakistani populations mostly cluster around a pooled South Asian sample and lie close to a Middle Eastern sample”. The reason, however is “because Y variation in many areas of the world is predominantly structured by geography, not by language or ethnic affiliation”. The fifth common Haplogroup is Haplogroup 28 and is found among 14% of Pakistani population.

It is this Haplogroup 28 that is your ‘Indian connection’ or in your words ‘Indian/Hindu blood’. It is found in 30% of Indian and as one goes to the west, it gradually decreases (Pakistan – 14%, Tajikistan – 10%, Uzbekistan – 3%), finally almost disappearing in Europe (Russia – 0.4%, Caucasus – 1.4%).

But where do Pathans stand in all this. Well, bang in the middle. About 13% of Pathans show presence of Hap 28, which is almost the national average.[Look for Chart F and code PKH] The only ethnic groups that show some isolation and are pretty distinct are the Hazaras, not the Pathans. Although Hazaras and Pathans have more affinity to West Asians, Pathans are still as much ‘Indian’ as any other Pakistani is.