Indian Air Force - Touching the Sky With Glory

[IBRIS]

Samtel's Indigenous MFDs On Su-30MKI

[karan.1970]

Originally Posted by blain2

This is a pretty lame answer. As if the Israelis, Poles, Turks, Greeks, Emeratis and Pakistanis don't believe in safeguarding their investments in the F-16 in the future.

None of the aircraft currently in the MMRCA running are a generation ahead of the current generation of the F-16. They are all in the same boat. Old or new F-16s may be operated by African countries in the future, but so would Mig-29/35 and Su-30 series. So what is the point?

F-16 and F/A-18 are the best of the bunch in the MMRCA running and your side is most likely to go with the F/A-18 which is an aircraft of the same generation as the F-16 and both have comparable avionics.

The downside for your side with the F-16 is that WE fly it. WE know the platform and have employed it for a very long time. This runs it out of contention, and not the conjured up reasons that you put forth.

The only differing opinion that I have is about upgrade entitlement. Being over 35 years old, F 16 is nearing the end of its upgrade entitlement, while most of the other contenders are relatively newer. F 16 was operationally introduced in 1978 and is by far the oldest plane in the contest. The next one is the Gripen, good 18 years later followed by F 18 that got introduced operationally in 1998 as a replacement to F 14 which was of the same generation as F 16.

While F 16 has been upgraded continuously, there is only so much that you can do with base design that 35 years old. And for quite some time now, USAF has been focussing more on F 35 as a replacement to F 16

So I agree with you about the part of F 18 being the best bet among the lot and in my view thats what we will go with. Both F 16 and Gripen, in my view are too light for the role and given the current affinity of India with twin engine planes are not going far in this contest. F 16 also has a killing disadvantage of being the apple of the eyes of PAF...

[Ruag]

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

[Ruag]

MiG-29 Baaz

[jagjitnatt]

Originally Posted by Growler

Such a narrow minded approach.

The super viper offered for India is infact more advance then MKI! the current version of IDAF F-16 is as good as MKI. Even PAF block 52+ are a good match for MKI. Mig-35 is a evolution of Mig-29 like block 70 is for block 5 F-16s.

Originally Posted by blain2

This is a pretty lame answer. As if the Israelis, Poles, Turks, Greeks, Emeratis and Pakistanis don't believe in safeguarding their investments in the F-16 in the future.

None of the aircraft currently in the MMRCA running are a generation ahead of the current generation of the F-16. They are all in the same boat. Old or new F-16s may be operated by African countries in the future, but so would Mig-29/35 and Su-30 series. So what is the point?

F-16 and F/A-18 are the best of the bunch in the MMRCA running and your side is most likely to go with the F/A-18 which is an aircraft of the same generation as the F-16 and both have comparable avionics.

The downside for your side with the F-16 is that WE fly it. WE know the platform and have employed it for a very long time. This runs it out of contention, and not the conjured up reasons that you put forth.

I think you never understood the post. I don't believe that F-16 is not a potent platform, what I meant was that block 70 would be the last block, 10 years from now if we wanted to upgrade it, there woul be no options left.

Here are the reasons F16 is a BAD choice today.

1. F-16 is evolved to the limit. No more upgrades possible in the coming years. After India's order, the production line would be shut down and used for newer aircraft. Also F-16 spares would become a horror story.

2. Ordering in 2014, we would start getting planes in 2015 and the order would be completed somewhere around 2020 or so. At that point in time F-16 would have been phased out in half of the world and very few operators would be left. Remember, we would have started getting Pak Fa by then. F-16 is like a 50 year old guy who knows great Kung-Fu, but other aircraft are like 18 year old who are even better. Who would you pick??

3. Other options like F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale are way way better. They are new, capable, they would be supported for at least 25 years more years, so upgrades would be released in coming years. So even after 2030, they can be upgraded to become more lethal, just like we did with Mirage 2000 today.

4. F-16 is already being phased out by USAF. When we have option to buy EF Typhoon or Rafale, no sane person would go in for the F-16.

[sparklingway]

Originally Posted by Ruag

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI

Nice pictures !

[blain2]

Your argument is flawed because the same applies to the F/A-18, Grippen, Rafale and even the Typhoon. The benefit that the F-16 has is the immense market for upgrades for it. None of the other aircraft come even close. If LM does not offer upgrades, other companies and integrators will because they see a big opportunity to enhance the F-16 beyond what it is currently. F-16s are like the Mig-21 and Mirage III series. Even after LM assembly lines shut down, those in Turkey, Egypt will be producing spares and limited enhancements.

2. It would do you some good to look at what the current and recent buyers of F-16 are planning to do with their blk-50s and above. None of these countries are planning on retiring these aircraft before 2040 (at least 30 years of life). F/A-18 is no different. Aside from USN and USMC, which will switch to
F-35 starting this decade, only RAAF, Kuwaitis and the Swiss fly this aircraft. All the problems you ascribe to the F-16 pertaining to shortage of spares etc. are multiplied manifold for the Super Hornet. Secondly, if you will be getting the PAK-FA so soon, then why bother with the MMRCA? The reality is that IAF knows that PAK-FA will nowhere close to being ready for induction over the next 7-10 years. Thus the need to pick aircraft which are in the exact same category as the F-16.

4. USAF F-16s will be in service until the 2020s. Turks, Israelis, Greeks, Poles, Emeratis, Singaporeans and Pakistanis are pretty sane people and have bought F-16s planning to fly these for the next 4 decades. So lets not try to oversimplify the situation by claiming F-16 does not make sense. It has made sense to all of them to invest in late blocks of F-16. If the F-16 could have been negated for the reasons you describe, IAF would have eliminated it way before.

[Novice09]

Artistic impression... imagine MKIs with brahmos

[Novice09]

SU-30 MKI Taking Off On Full Afterburner

[jagjitnatt]

[Storm Force]

F16 is a great war plane.

But it lacks Range, power, thrust & weapons load, When compared to Typhoon F18/SH and indeed the SU30MKI.

IF USA retires this plane and by the looks of it many NATO nations then the future upgrades will be very minor to WHAT the USA can do.

F18S/H is set to acquire 6th generation technology because USN want to maintain over 300 F18S/H for the carrier fleet unto 2040.

In contrast there are already hundreds of mothballed F16s in USA deserts.

JSF entry will reduce the F16 life span well before 2030.

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Originally Posted by Storm Force

F16 is a great war plane.

But it lacks Range, power, thrust & weapons load, When compared to Typhoon F18/SH and indeed the SU30MKI.

IF USA retires this plane and by the looks of it many NATO nations then the future upgrades will be very minor to WHAT the USA can do.

F18S/H is set to acquire 6th generation technology because USN want to maintain over 300 F18S/H for the carrier fleet unto 2040.

In contrast there are already hundreds of mothballed F16s in USA deserts.

JSF entry will reduce the F16 life span well before 2030.

So Indian lobby should stop worrying about July hand over of F-16s but they are making a lot of noise in US to stop sale of this outdated plane to Pakistan. aaaaaaaaa why????

[Storm Force]

Indians have already made it clear to all participants That the IAF will not be buying any MMRCA which itself is not to be in frontline service with their OWN AIR FORCE.

This is why despite Russian efforts on MIG35 its bottom of the list along with the F16 which the indians can clearl;y see is being replaced WORLDWIDE by F35 Typhoon & Gripen & Rafael.


The key factors for MMRCA are

2 engines = BETTER SURVIVAL chances
AESA radar
to be in service and relevant until 2040
Has to BE prime fighter in parent Air force to help with upgrades
Overall Price over life time of service.. til 2040

That means F18 S/H is front runner
Typhoon & Rafael are big contenders
Gripen NG is the dark horse.

F16 & MIG35 are bottom. of the running as we speak.

[Storm Force]

Gin ingnore india,s whinning re 14 old F16s that just politics.

India will always put its diplomatic pressure on all nations that try and even remotely support Pakistan.

You must know that by now yourself

[Novice09]

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