Pakistan: Presidential or Parliamentary System?

[lem34]

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Lets assume that we can come up with an ideal system incorporating the best of other systems and discarding bits and bats.

When does the revolution come?

Who does the inevitable blood letting?

How can we get PA and ISI to listen to us and subordinate their power to us?

Perhaps use IK as a figurehead with a team behind him?

Back to one party system. We write a document and start a movement. Pakistanis join us. We overthrow the current status quo.

[longbrained]

There must be "incentives" for this "transformation" - otherwise resistance will become obstacles and did I read longbrain say "socialism" and "islamic values" - what are those? more terrorism? If not terrorism, then what are those "Islamic values" what speciafically "islamic" about them?

Well, we can not fool ourselves that our society is not Muslim. For 90% of our people Islam is the most important part of their life, whether we like it or not. We can not just become a communist country. Those Islamic values are not wahabi values you are talking about. It is just that our laws should not anger people and destabilize the country for example by bringing a law that bans Islamic divorce or such stuff. You know what I am talking about. Pakistan's culture is not Swedish. Let's just remember that and work within those constraints.

The more I think about the system you are suggesting is tantamount to an elected dictator for a limited period?

Not dictatorship. A dictatorship by definition is not elected and does not have a term in office. We need a president who is powerful and secured enough to lead the country towards prosperity. Current system of parliament is clearly a failure for Pakistan. The PM is always making deals with feudal parliament to remain in power and is a slave to its party. A powerful president on the other hand is going to be free from those chains.

[fd24]

Perhaps use IK as a figurehead with a team behind him?

I was waiting for someone to mention IK - Would he be a strong enough character to carry out the "inevitable blood letting"?
Would Pakistan people show the patience needed to do the transformation?
Would the army and ISI give him the ultimate attention he would need?
"The team" you mention is the fulcrum of the potential way forward - who did you have in mind?

[longbrained]

That's the whole flaw ain't it?

I like your ideas, but wouldn't we need a major overhaul of the whole system?

That would make the current benefactors really angry, and making a stiff opposition to this idea.

It is not really a major overhaul, neither it is a revolution. It is just a change in constitution. Though this can only be done by a mass public movement as the current corrupt MNA's will never do it. It should be similar to the lawyer movement which caused the last constitutional amendment. Though I think if Imran Khan wins he should go for this as well.

[lem34]

Well, we can not fool ourselves that our society is not Muslim. For 90% of our people Islam is the most important part of their life, whether we like it or not. We can not just become a communist country. Those Islamic values are not wahabi values you are talking about. It is just that our laws should not anger people and destabilize the country for example by bringing a law that bans Islamic divorce or such stuff. You know what I am talking about. Pakistan's culture is not Swedish. Let's just remember that and work within those constraints.

.

Agreed we dress it up as that and pay lip service to it but no more

[muse]

So "Islamic values" are that we are not Sweden????? See, you just have to very clear about what "islamic values" are, not just what they are not - because it's important, it's important that we are all on the same page. Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, does that mean the value system experiences no change??

Why not leave peoples values to themselves, why allow the state to appropriate them??? Muslims don't need the state to tell them right from wrong and good from bad, do they??? After all, their scriptures and religious teachings are the source of their convictions, not the state, right???

See my point?

Dictatorship bad?? OK, tell me which national level or provincial level legislation, have any ordinary Pakistanis, any input on??? And since we don't have any local government that operates in a democratic form or process, so what do we have?? It's important we are careful in the kind of civic religion we choose, that where those "values" come in and our need to define and refine them .

We should say what we mean -- and we give credibility and buy in to the idea of "Islamic values" when we define them

[lem34]

Not dictatorship. A dictatorship by definition is not elected and does not have a term in office. We need a president who is powerful and secured enough to lead the country towards prosperity. Current system of parliament is clearly a failure for Pakistan. The PM is always making deals with feudal parliament to remain in power and is a slave to its party. A powerful president on the other hand is going to be free from those chains.

Yes but the electorate is in voluntary chains. Lets say we had this next week. The ones that stand a chance of being elected are not the type we want.

btw IK simply is not clever enough. I know his heart may be in the right place but we need someone clever ruthless even canny

[longbrained]

Agreed we dress it up as that and pay lip service to it but no more

Unfortunately yes. But we have to remember that it is not only our fault. Our religious scholars have failed to research and bring up a viable modern Islamic political theory. Majority of Pakistan does not want to live under Taliban but they do not want to live an infidel life either. So a compromise has be made for now. Our government is paralyzed and we need some change for good. Read how things are bad here:

Pakistan Court Shuts Plants, Investor Sour - TIME

And

Karachi Blackouts Worsen With Power Ship Idle in Harbor - Businessweek

As you can see, the Turkish power plant is sitting next Karachi idling but Karachi is in darkness. This is called paralysis.

[lem34]

Unfortunately yes. But we have to remember that it is not only our fault. Our religious scholars have failed to research and bring up a viable modern Islamic political theory. Majority of Pakistan does not want to live under Taliban but they do not want to live an infidel life either.

Muse what do you reckon lip service and dress it up. Could you live with that. lol

[longbrained]

Yes but the electorate is in voluntary chains. Lets say we had this next week. The ones that stand a chance of being elected are not the type we want.

btw IK simply is not clever enough. I know his heart may be in the right place but we need someone clever ruthless even canny

Actually I do not see it that way. If our people had the chance to directly elect a leader they would do much better a job than now. If it was a presidential system, more honest people would come forward as presidential candidate. Today if an honest and clever guy who really loves Pakistan would want to come forward at most he can stand up for a small seat in a large corrupt parliament and end result is going to be zero. Even Imran Khan who is honest has had to make deals with corrupt people to make a party to have a minimal chance to become a weak PM.

So "Islamic values" are that we are not Sweden????? See, you just have to very clear about what "islamic values" are, not just what they are not - because it's important, it's important that we are all on the same page. Pakistan is overwhelmingly Muslim, does that mean the value system experiences no change??

Why not leave peoples values to themselves, why allow the state to appropriate them??? Muslims don't need the state to tell them right from wrong and good from bad, do they??? After all, their scriptures and religious teachings are the source of their convictions, not the state, right???

See my point?

Dictatorship bad?? OK, tell me which national level or provincial level legislation, have any ordinary Pakistanis, any input on??? And since we don't have any local government that operates in a democratic form or process, so what do we have?? It's important we are careful in the kind of civic religion we choose, that where those "values" come in and our need to define and refine them .

We should say what we mean -- and we give credibility and buy in to the idea of "Islamic values" when we define them

That is what I am saying. Let people decide. But a strong presidential system would give people more power not less. At the end of the day, it is people who will decide through their president and parliament.

My point is current system is paralyzed and can not even take decisions. it is not about telling people what to do. it is about a viable system.

[lem34]

If it was a presidential system, more honest people would come forward as presidential candidate. .

Without other major changes the likes of Billy Zardari still has unfair advantage. Remember his mother left him slaves aka PPP

[fd24]

Agreed we dress it up as that and pay lip service to it but no more

Dressing up? We have to establish the parameters and constraints that we can work within.
Its important to establish and set fundamental ground rules. Its important to separate what the state encrypts and to what
extent you allow the "religious factor" to establish itself in our system.
The mindset must be engraved in stone to eliminate issues in the system we choose.

[lem34]

That is what I am saying. Let people decide. But a strong presidential system would give people more power not less. At the end of the day, it is people who will decide through their president and parliament.

mate the people are in invisible chains.


When an elephant is young, if a trainer puts a chain around its leg and restrains it from moving far, the young elephant will initially try to escape.

After trying for a while, the animal realises that escaping is futile and gives in to the restraint, enabling the trainer to control the elephant for the rest of its life. From then on, all that is required is a chain around its leg and a wooden peg in the ground that you or I could pull out, but the elephant doesn’t.

Why?

Because it doesn’t think that it can.

The Elephant and the Chain – What’s Holding You Back? « Better Life Coaching Blog

[longbrained]

Without other major changes the likes of Billy Zardari still has unfair advantage. Remember his mother left him slaves aka PPP

Not if voting is direct. Zardari might get votes in his village but he will get zero votes in other parts of the country. On the other hand some one like IK is guaranteed to win against him since he is popular with people. On the other hand in parliamentary system people like Zardari have advantage. In presidential system their political life is finished.

[lem34]

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Dressing up? We have to establish the parameters and constraints that we can work within.
Its important to establish and set fundamental ground rules. Its important to separate what the state encrypts and to what
extent you allow the "religious factor" to establish itself in our system.
The mindset must be engraved in stone to eliminate issues in the system we choose.

No brother I mean cosmetic and no more