F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Guest]

Originally Posted by Growler

in another words the bottom of the pyramid?
HQ7? and you know what IN is getting on their frigates? BARAK. heck even ESSM is way better then HQ7 which is bound to be installed in our OHP.

oh, first C803,and then HQ7. how well do you konw about HQ7s, do some researh first plz.

Originally Posted by Growler

we could have the same capability even with other frigates or even corvettes. in fact Milgem is more Superior even with lesser displacement and is totally new state of the art design with far more latest naval war fare capability. and they offer all this at additional 50 million dollars of F-22P cost. PN would be better off with spending additional 1.5 billion dollars on Milgem corvettes then F-22P.

maybe u r ringht at the "capability", the question is when.
but the 1.5 billion dollars can not be verified, r u sure the next upgraded 4 F22Ps cost 750 million dollars.

Originally Posted by Growler

as if other naval platforms of 21st century do not have this capability.

of course you can have this capability, but not for free. not after you buy the US made AWACs and the on shore communication equipments.


btw, what about your arguments, giving them up?

[Growler]

first of all bro no hard fellings.. i have nothing against china.

Originally Posted by Guest

oh, first C803,and then HQ7. how well do you konw about HQ7s, do some researh first plz.

HQ7 is a chinese variant of French Crotale which they acquired in 1980s.

maybe u r ringht at the "capability", the question is when.
but the 1.5 billion dollars can not be verified, r u sure the next upgraded 4 F22Ps cost 750 million dollars.

first 4 F-22P with 2500 tonne displacement costs 750 million dollars, the next 4 are assumed to be 3,000 tonne class with better features so i am guessing the price could be more then 750.


at the end of the day.. is this deal worth it? i mean we are getting state of the art latest non-nuclear submarines from germany the Type-214 at 1.5 billion dollars.. and yes both submarine and frigates have different roles. but let me tell you given the task to inflict damage on Indian navy i bet you 3 Type-214 will be much much more lethal then 8 F-22P.

[hj786]

Originally Posted by Growler

at the end of the day.. is this deal worth it? i mean we are getting state of the art latest non-nuclear submarines from germany the Type-214 at 1.5 billion dollars.. and yes both submarine and frigates have different roles. but let me tell you given the task to inflict damage on Indian navy i bet you 3 Type-214 will be much much more lethal then 8 F-22P.

But F-22P is just a cheap anti-submarine platform, right Penguin?

It would be used to deploy helicopters armed with dipping sonar and torpedoes for hunting submarines. They can keep Pakistan's sea lanes clear of enemy submarines, protecting the merchant shipping. It is a cheap helicopter/UAV platform that also has some capability against ships. For the price, PN can't do any better. PN needs anti-sub platforms and F-22P is the most cost-effective option. Penguin says they should build even more 22P and he knows his stuff.
Bear in mind the PN are still going to select an advanced frigate/destroyer type such as MEKO A200, Type 054A or FREMM, along with MILGEM corvettes and U-214.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by hj786

But F-22P is just a cheap anti-submarine platform, right Penguin?

It would be used to deploy helicopters armed with dipping sonar and torpedoes for hunting submarines. They can keep Pakistan's sea lanes clear of enemy submarines, protecting the merchant shipping. It is a cheap helicopter/UAV platform that also has some capability against ships. For the price, PN can't do any better. PN needs anti-sub platforms and F-22P is the most cost-effective option. Penguin says they should build even more 22P and he knows his stuff.
Bear in mind the PN are still going to select an advanced frigate/destroyer type such as MEKO A200, Type 054A or FREMM, along with MILGEM corvettes and U-214.

F-22P is not that superior for its money as we are glamorizing with our blind patriotism. 170 million dollars is not cheap because at additional of 30-40 million dollars we have a superior latest technology Milgem corvette which by all means can perform much much better AShW and ASuW duties. Let alone Milgem corvettes we will soon have a better frigate "OHP" with superior ASuW capability at almost peanuts cost.
IMO F-22P deal has to do more with politics then technical gain.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Guest

250nmi for aircrafts, not for vessels. there is a huge difference between looking up and looking down. the ships 50KMs aways would be several dozen or even several hundred meters below horizon coz the earth is round.

Air defence radars must be capable of detecting low flying missile to. A surface ship is a much bigger target than a anti-ship missile flying at or below 20m.

The Navy operates the AN/SPS-49(V) as a shipborne radar on board approximately 115 ships and shore installations. Operation in the 902-928 MHz band is critical because it offers unique propagation characteristics that permit detection of small, fast moving targets over water, referred to as sea skimmers. A sea skimming missile or aircraft poses a particular problem, since at normal target tracking frequencies in smooth sea conditions there is a tendency for the radar return to be reflected back off the sea surface, causing confusion to the radar resulting in gross errors in assessment of speed and range. This problem has been largely overcome by using frequencies in the 902-928 MHz band. The Navy maintains that continued access to the 902-928 MHz band is essential to meet national defense requirements.

[hj786]

Originally Posted by Growler

F-22P is not that superior for its money as we are glamorizing with our blind patriotism. 170 million dollars is not cheap because at additional of 30-40 million dollars we have a superior latest technology Milgem corvette which by all means can perform much much better AShW and ASuW duties. Let alone Milgem corvettes we will soon have a better frigate "OHP" with superior ASuW capability at almost peanuts cost.
IMO F-22P deal has to do more with politics then technical gain.

MILGEM is a different class. F-22P is 25% larger than MILGEM, meaning it can stay on patrol longer, carry more jet fuel for the chopper, more ammunition, more UAVs, more room for upgrades, etc. MILGEM corvettes can't work as far out as 22P. 22P can be fitted with the "superior latest technology" as well if desired by the PN.

The OHP frigate is the one you should be unhappy about. PN are going to spend huge amounts of resources to support only 1 old frigate, a far cry from the 6 they asked for.

[TOPGUN]

Originally Posted by Growler

F-22P is not that superior for its money as we are glamorizing with our blind patriotism. 170 million dollars is not cheap because at additional of 30-40 million dollars we have a superior latest technology Milgem corvette which by all means can perform much much better AShW and ASuW duties. Let alone Milgem corvettes we will soon have a better frigate "OHP" with superior ASuW capability at almost peanuts cost.
IMO F-22P deal has to do more with politics then technical gain.

Brother no hard feelings towards u ! but again its all about funds & then some ! we have to be thankful for wat we can get & have lets just hope for a brighter future for our armed forces speically or Navy which has been lacking for years! i know it first hand as my father tells me all the time ! lets think with a open mind .

[arsalanaslam123]

Originally Posted by Growler
first 4 F-22P with 2500 tonne displacement costs 750 million dollars, the next 4 are assumed to be 3,000 tonne class with better features so i am guessing the price could be more then 750.

now that is a news, atleat for me!!
i mean is there any thing official about getting four more frigates, all i know about is the four we are going to get from china from which one is to build at home!!
i have heared nothing regardng the total number to go upto 8, can anyone confirm!!

regards!

[arsalanaslam123]

Originally Posted by TOPGUN

Brother no hard feelings towards u ! but again its all about funds & then some ! we have to be thankful for wat we can get & have lets just hope for a brighter future for our armed forces speically or Navy which has been lacking for years! i know it first hand as my father tells me all the time ! lets think with a open mind .

that sums it up,
the miliegem may be superior in some aspects but are not available as yet, more over it is not wise to present a coverte as a replacement of a frigate,,
the OPH main advantage is also bieng heavier then F22p, as on technical side, one cannot find anything superior that the F22p lacks,i do not mean to say (not atleast this time) that OPH are bad buy but yes, are not better then the F22p either!
yes, OPH wil be great buy if we manage to fire land attack cruise missile from them which do not seem to be happening,
also spending on upgradation to accquire this ability on a platform that will be serving us not for a longer period of time may not be wise either! so they are more of stop gap,,
on other hand F22p is something better then every thing we are operating right now!

no hard thoughts for anyone friends!

regards!

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by hj786

The OHP frigate is the one you should be unhappy about. PN are going to spend huge amounts of resources to support only 1 old frigate, a far cry from the 6 they asked for.

Transfer costs $65million, a huge amount of resources?

65 million USD = 5,4 billion PKR

XE.com Conversion - 65,000,000.00 USD to PKR

Assuming a usefull service life in PN of 10 years > spread transfer cost over 10 years > divide by 10 for annual cost
= 6.5 million USD = 0.54 billion PKR

Factor in operating cost of about $16 million (1.33 billion PKR) annually, or almost 1/4 of transfer cost.

Annual cost OHP McInerney: 0.54+1.33 = 1.87 billion PKR

Pakistan’s defence budget for the 2008-09 fiscal year starting 1 July was raised by 7.6 percent – from Rs (Pakistan) 275 billion in 2007-08 to Rs 296.07 billion ($4.4 billion). The increase was claimed to be negligible, due to 10.4 percent inflation, increase in fuel prices and 20 percent increase in pay and allowances.
Of Rs 296 billion, a major portion of Rs 294.9 billion have been allocated to military defence. Of military defence allocation, Rs 99 billion will be spent on employees’ related expenses. The operating expenses will be Rs 82.84 billion and the cost of physical assets Rs 87.63 billion.
A report in the Daily Times has given the break down in the defence budget thus, “allocations for the Pakistan Army have increased by 4.31 percent as compared to last year with a grant of Rs 128.699 billion.
The budgetary allocation for the Air Force has increased by 5.93 percent in 2008-09 with Rs 71.006 billion, as compared to Rs 67.028 billion allocation in 2007-08”.
The Navy saw the highest increase in allocations by 14.16 percent with a total grant of Rs 29.133 billion, as compared to Rs 25.518 billion in 2007-08.

Pakistan’s Defence Budget: Misplaced Priorities by Col. Rahul K. Bhonsle

Pakistan’s defence budget FY2008-09: Rs 296.07 billion ($4.4 billion)
of which
Military defence Rs 294.9 billion
of which
Army Rs 128.699 billion.
Air Force Rs 71.006 billion
Navy Rs 29.133 billion (about 10% of budget for [military] defence)

Pakistan Defense Budget 2009-2010: Rs 343 billion

Pakistan Defense Budget 2009-2010 — Pro-Pakistan

Using the same spread over services, thats est. Rs 33.614 billion for the navy in 2009-2010

Of course, the Navy share of the defence budget for military defence may vary over time.
http://www.ipcs.org/article_details.php?articleNo=956

Nonetheless, 1.87 billion PKR comes down to 6.4% of 2008-2009 Navy outlays and 5.6% of 2009-2010 Navy outlays.

Over its expected servicelife of 30 years, F22P will - with higher initial acquisition cost of $150-$175 million but probably lower annual operating cost e.g. due to smaller crew - will come out similarly in terms of total annual cost (calculated that example elsewhere in an/this F22P thread)

As also explained elsewhere too, there is no 'reservoire' of OHPs. Like McInerney, any OHPs for Pakistan come about by retiring active USN ships. McInerney is scheduled to be decommissioned in 2010. The next few OHP to retire are scheduled for decommisioning starting 2013. There are only 2 mothballed OHPs, but they will be much more expense to bring back to service and to transfer 'cold' to foreign navy, compared to the 'hot' transfer than McInerney and others would be. In sum, for more cheap OHPs, just be patient and wait for them to retire from US service.


1.87 billion PKR comes down to 6.4% of 2008-2009 Navy outlays and 5.6% of 2009-2010 Navy outlays.

Over its expected servicelife of 30 years, F22P will - with higher initial acquisition cost of $150-$175 million but probably lower annual operating cost e.g. due to smaller crew - will come out similarly in terms of total annual cost (calculated that example elsewhere in an/this F22P thread)

As also explained elswhere, there is no 'reservoire' of OHPs. Like McInerney, any OHPs for Pakistan come about by retiring active USN ships. McInerney is scheduled to be decommissioned in 2010. The next few OHP to retire are scheduled for decommisioning starting 2013. There are only 2 mothballed OHPs, but they will be much more expense to bring back to service and to transfer 'cold' to foreign navy, compared to the 'hot' transfer than McInerney and others would be. In sum, for more cheap OHPs, just be patient and wait for them to retire from US service.

[arsalanaslam123]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Over its expected servicelife of 30 years, F22P will - with higher initial acquisition cost of $150-$175 million but probably lower annual operating cost e.g. due to smaller crew - will come out similarly in terms of total annual cost (calculated that example elsewhere in an/this F22P thread)

where did this come from, the F22p come as 2.5 times expensive then the OPH and sever some 3.5 times more in years,
so if by your formula if we divide this cost over the possible service years the cost will be lesser, also there is add advantage od lesser operating cost due to smaller crew as you yourelf mentioned and amsl lesser maintainance cost as they are newer platforms! this make us end up with F22p offering more value for its price,,
i have concluded it all from you own statements and i hope that you wont disagree atleast this time (just for ske of it,, )

regards!

[a1b2c145]

Originally Posted by Growler

first of all bro no hard fellings.. i have nothing against china.



HQ7 is a chinese variant of French Crotale which they acquired in 1980s.



first 4 F-22P with 2500 tonne displacement costs 750 million dollars, the next 4 are assumed to be 3,000 tonne class with better features so i am guessing the price could be more then 750.


at the end of the day.. is this deal worth it? i mean we are getting state of the art latest non-nuclear submarines from germany the Type-214 at 1.5 billion dollars.. and yes both submarine and frigates have different roles. but let me tell you given the task to inflict damage on Indian navy i bet you 3 Type-214 will be much much more lethal then 8 F-22P.

just be realistic~ you use the submarines, ok, the indian can also use submarines! we need F-22p to anti -submarines!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Growler]

Originally Posted by a1b2c145

just be realistic~ you use the submarines, ok, the indian can also use submarines! we need F-22p to anti -submarines!!!!!!!!!!!!

F-22P is not a prime anti-submarine frigate at all, its primary role is still Multipurpose and its anti-sub capability is only average. only if we had these subs 10-15 years earlier only then we could say pakistan has got a quality state of the art frigate and right now IN has advance to next level with their surface fleet. heck Milgem probably has more advance anti-sub technology and capability to hunt subs... Once we get Type-214 in our fleet then IN Sub and surface fleet are doomed! i mean other then Akula II type-214 will be the most feared naval weapon in indian ocean!

[arsalanaslam123]

heck Milgem probably has more advance anti-sub technology and capability to hunt subs...

this is what hit me,
it is a covertte and you are not sure about its ASuW abilities, sit tight my frined, we will have to wait for a few yaers before we may see the miligem coverte or a frigate in PN, in the mean while F22p is a step toward he right destination!
i do not find any system on board F22p to be bad, however i agree that system replacement on board ,iligem may be superior, but sir, havent we already suffered a lot from these if's and may's deals!

a bird in hand is better then two in a bush!
and here we are going to have four virds in hand,,

any how, i requested you to share information about the total number of F22p that we will eventually accquire, actually i knew about four but last day i went throgh a post claiming that PN will eventually accquire eight in two batches of four frigates, any knowledge about it??

regards!

[Growler]

Originally Posted by arsalanaslam123

this is what hit me,
it is a covertte and you are not sure about its ASuW abilities, sit tight my frined, we will have to wait for a few yaers before we may see the miligem coverte or a frigate in PN, in the mean while F22p is a step toward he right destination!

Just because F-22P is given tittle of "frigate" does not mean it has the same capability as any modern frigates. infact if we are to construct a frigate pyramid chart F-22P deserves no better place then bottom of the chart. on the other hand.... Milgem is using state of the art electronic suites even sharing some of the technology from 6,000 tonne class combatants such as the danish "Absalon Class Combat".
The SMART-S Mk2 surveillance radar purchased from Thales.

i do not find any system on board F22p to be bad, however i agree that system replacement on board ,iligem may be superior, but sir, havent we already suffered a lot from these if's and may's deals!

You need to take a another look, almost everything onboard F-22P is a nothing but upgradtion of Type-053. just look at its air borne radar by the hangar deck it really depressing.
Turkey is our reliable partner as much as China.