why cant BVR's be installed on the ground instead of planes??

[salvage]

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I mean if they have a range of 300 kilometers then whats the difference of them going of from point A on ground or point B thats an aeroplane 10,000 meters(10 kilometers) away from point A towards the target thats 200 Kilometers from Point A and 190 kilometers from point B.

I hope u understood what i am trying to say

and can ANZA be converted into a BVR?Like adding a small handle and a trigger to the BVR launcher?and also can ANZA be fitted on JF-17?4 on each wings and out of 4 on each wing 2 in reverse direction for firing at plane on the tail?

[Last Hope]

Not so sure, but I have seen AMRAAMs more like SAM. So it is possible according to my thoughts.

[Myth_buster_1]

I mean if they have a range of 300 kilometers then whats the difference of them going of from point A on ground or point B thats an aeroplane 10,000 meters(10 kilometers) away from point A towards the target thats 200 Kilometers from Point A and 190 kilometers from point B.

I hope u understood what i am trying to say

and can ANZA be converted into a BVR?Like adding a small handle and a trigger to the BVR launcher?and also can ANZA be fitted on JF-17?4 on each wings and out of 4 on each wing 2 in reverse direction for firing at plane on the tail?

Bro converting ANZA for BVR is like saying turning a B-52 into a fighter jet.

[nightcrawler]

can't be donl BVR guidance is the main problem to be integrated in Anza..but not the range. It can be increased by adding more solid propelled darts..

[MastanKhan]

[QUOTE=salvage;1826040]I mean if they have a range of 300 kilometers then whats the difference of them going of from point A on ground or point B thats an aeroplane 10,000 meters(10 kilometers) away from point A towards the target thats 200 Kilometers from Point A and 190 kilometers from point B.

I hope u understood what i am trying to say

Hi,

First of all--I would like to know if you go to school college or university----what kind of education background----not to be insulting----engineering or otherwise.

Remember GRAVITY---when an airplane takes off the ground fully loaded----it uses about approximately close to half of its fuel just to be airworthy----remember the boeing 707's----a boeing taking off from karachi to london would consume more fuel on take off than it would consume during the flight from karachi to london.

Just to let you in---when I gave that information to my physics professor in the college in 1974---he was very insulting to me in front of the class---because he didnot believe it---then when I went ahead and told him that the 707 using kerosene though highly refined----he just blew up on me in the class and properly insulted me of lying----oh well.

[salvage]

[QUOTE=MastanKhan;1826398]

I mean if they have a range of 300 kilometers then whats the difference of them going of from point A on ground or point B thats an aeroplane 10,000 meters(10 kilometers) away from point A towards the target thats 200 Kilometers from Point A and 190 kilometers from point B.

I hope u understood what i am trying to say

Hi,

First of all--I would like to know if you go to school college or university----what kind of education background----not to be insulting----engineering or otherwise.

Remember GRAVITY---when an airplane takes off the ground fully loaded----it uses about approximately close to half of its fuel just to be airworthy----remember the boeing 707's----a boeing taking off from karachi to london would consume more fuel on take off than it would consume during the flight from karachi to london.

Just to let you in---when I gave that information to my physics professor in the college in 1974---he was very insulting to me in front of the class---because he didnot believe it---then when I went ahead and told him that the 707 using kerosene though highly refined----he just blew up on me in the class and properly insulted me of lying----oh well.

i sir am a college drop-out but aeronautics and flying stuff does fascinates me

[just4akhilesh]

BNR are just a figure game
in actual fight jet need to come closer for perfect kill
exp at the distance of 70 km sukhoi is able to out perform aim120 so you need to come closer then 60 km and hit probability is more same at ground target

[ANG]

Hi, I wanted to add to a couple of points to what Mr. MK said. The Anza is a heat seaking missile and as such cannot be guided by a radar. The most you could probably use it for is on a helicopter to engage other helicopters or other low flying objects.

The Stinger missile is carried by some helicopter platforms and I am assuming with some tweaks you could use the the Anza also on a helicopter. But, that brings into question is it cost effective. Moreover there are better suited and proven air-to-air missiles out there for helicopters than the Anza.

Other BVR missiles are used on the ground. If you google land based AMRAAM or MICA, you will see ground based versions of these BVR missiles. However, the ranges are massively reduced for the land version when compared to the air launched versions. Why? Launching a missile from the ground, you are dealing with gravity and a denser atmosphere (as Mr. MK pointed out).

[nightcrawler]

[QUOTE=MastanKhan;1826398]

I mean if they have a range of 300 kilometers then whats the difference of them going of from point A on ground or point B thats an aeroplane 10,000 meters(10 kilometers) away from point A towards the target thats 200 Kilometers from Point A and 190 kilometers from point B.

I hope u understood what i am trying to say

Hi,

First of all--I would like to know if you go to school college or university----what kind of education background----not to be insulting----engineering or otherwise.

Remember GRAVITY---when an airplane takes off the ground fully loaded----it uses about approximately close to half of its fuel just to be airworthy----remember the boeing 707's----a boeing taking off from karachi to london would consume more fuel on take off than it would consume during the flight from karachi to london.

Just to let you in---when I gave that information to my physics professor in the college in 1974---he was very insulting to me in front of the class---because he didnot believe it---then when I went ahead and told him that the 707 using kerosene though highly refined----he just blew up on me in the class and properly insulted me of lying----oh well.

Respected sir,
I am afraid that Gravity in case of solid propelled missile has relatively less no effect relative to Boeing 747. Most of the missile including AAMs are made air to surface just by adding more solid dart in tandem..SLAMRAAM for instance.
In solid propulsion the darts are filled with specially configured shapes what we chemical engineering. call them GRAIN CONFIGURATION.

So for instance you want to have a surface to air missile demanding a high initial through put (boosting) & then maintaining specific impulse (a thrust measurement) you will have this configuration...(assuming burning from inside..missile also burn from the shell inwards)

more surface area greater rate of combustion..& then the star shape be dissolved & then you get a uniform thrust for levelling; range gain & less fuel burns...

For terminal boosting goosh it was difficult for us to simulate. you have to use very comples design such as these


so you see that when you go for different profiles in a single dart the geometry of grain becomes difficult so instead of achieving various profiles in a single dart you go for multiple darts there are easy to manufacture at mass scale with less precise geometery controls..

For example for terminal phase you can invert the grain profile & let the dart burn form shell inwards...such technique is easy & you get a very high dash but you also get a weight penalty by increasing dart number for each profile :(

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

They are called Slam RAAMS



You need to actually purchase the supporting technology on ground to be able to shoot from teh ground which Pakistani do not have right now.

Also , our ANZA missiles are heat seekers , or IR signal seekers (correct me if I am wrong here) but these are derrivitives of Stinger Missile technology , once shot it goes and finds any plane in airspace locks and kills it -

BVR , are linked with Radars, and they also have ability to adjust the trajectory , and flight path more advance missiles


The reason why Pakistan has not been able to develop SAMS is simple - lack of Research and investment in that sector only nothing more - takes 4-7 years to develop a nice system , with investment of 200-300 million dollars at least...or more of course. And you need some solid output from university`s research departments

Also you need to have Super computers available which allow you to simulate testing and do quick tests on changing constants -

We don`t have super computers, and we don`t have investment in SAM technology and also we lack ambition in that sector if we get the SAM (any SAM) in next 3 years it would be a blessing


With hand held heat or IR signal missiles I believe your own planes are also in danger of accidentally being shot down with your own missiles , in case the missile incorrectly locks on your own plane.


In order to develop the SAMS you need

a) Genius Mathmaticians
b) Genius Programmers
c) Genius Electronics Engineers
d) Genius Physist

Also you got to have you own Radars, which end up processing all the data that is there

Plus you need super computers to run simulations , and calculations of flight path of missile.

Obviously having a TOT in radar manufacturing helps you 20% into being able to work with creation of a SAM but the real test is getting all the different fields of experts to work together to create one product.

I think if Pakistan has a Private Sector company - I am sure they can do it

The government can`t be expected to do this they do not have the knowledge for this kind of high tech gear they even locked up their own Nuclear scientist

[salvage]

ok i got the answer...so BVR launched from ground will waste half of its gas while defying gravity and thereby curtailing its range

[nightcrawler]

In order to develop the SAMS you need

a) Genius Mathmaticians
b) Genius Programmers
c) Genius Electronics Engineers
d) Genius Physist

We have those, but am dubious about bold one

[fatman17]

yes they can be launched from ground as a SAM.
go to WMD and Missiles section and there is a article on using the SD-10 as a SAM

as a matter of fact, egypt uses the AIM-120 as a land based SAM

[epinephrine]

wats the advantage of using amraams as sams.i think air crafts r highly mobile platform to launch these missiles.sams can be launched form mobile launchers but their mobility is no match for a fighter jet

[krash]

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This might help further: Surface-Launched AMRAAM (SL-AMRAAM / CLAWS) Medium-Range Air Defence System - Army Technology

And also Anza is a short ranged missile hence will never be a BVR even if you some how managed to mount it on an aircraft ( which in my view is also useless as we have better options).