Potential Weaknesses of PAF and Possible Solutions

[Farooqi1]

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Gentlemen:

Let us have an honest, respectful and educated discussion about potential Weaknesses of PAF especially in the light of India's potential purchase of 126 Rafaels, the threat of SU 30 MKI, Govt of Pakistan's policy which has been thrust-ed upon PAF of single engine less powerful fighter air crafts, the role of JF-17 and its capabilities, future possible acquisition of FC-20 (J10-B)and should we acquire J11-B for navy or Air Superiority Role etc.

Let us Discuss.

[AUz]

Weakness # 1

Lack of highly integrated network of Medium/long range SAMs ...

Pakistan doesn't have any long range SAMs in decent numbers. This is the critical weakness that will cause PAF to get over-stretched in the times of any conflict.

I guess this is the main problem we have. Other than that , keeping in mind the capabilities of IAF , there is not really any huge threat. PAF has a fleet of 400+ fighters loaded with hundreds of BVRs and backed by advance AWACS/AEW&C aircrafts. The battle will be fought mainly over the deserts of Sindh and plains of punjab (and in the mountains of Kashmir). PAF will be able to handle IAF relatively with ease , if we have a highly-integrated network of long/medium range SAMs being effectively deployed against the Indian assets over the battle field.

[Farooqi1]

Weakness # 1

Lack of highly integrated network of Medium/long range SAMs ...

Pakistan doesn't have any long range SAMs in decent numbers. This is the critical weakness that will cause PAF to get over-stretched in the times of any conflict.

I guess this is the main problem we have. Other than that , keeping in mind the capabilities of IAF , there is not really any huge threat. PAF has a fleet of 400+ fighters loaded with hundreds of BVRs and backed by advance AWACS/AEW&C aircrafts. The battle will be fought mainly over the deserts of Sindh and plains of punjab (and in the mountains of Kashmir). PAF will be able to handle IAF relatively with ease , if we have a highly-integrated network of long/medium range SAMs being effectively deployed against the Indian assets over the battle field.

AUz.

I agree with you on SAMS but problem is that we do not have 400+ fighters loaded with BVRS. Plus don't you think the speed and the range of an aircraft would matter in a potential God forbid conflict? As per my analysis most modern air forces around the world are concentrating on Air Superiority and unfortunately I don't see any equipment in PAFs inventory or in future plans, which could do this task and in my opinion we don't have any thing to face an air superiority fighter.

[razgriz19]

umm you do realize that F-35 is also a single engine fighter, and it is very under-powered!
btw Rafale* and most of the MKIs will be posted up north to counter the Chinese.
We have a potent aerial defence force with Jf-17 and F-16s (hopefully J-10b in future)

Now its up to you to accept that fact or not.

However the only thing we do lack are long range SAM systems.

AUz.

I agree with you on SAMS but problem is that we do not have 400+ fighters loaded with BVRS. Plus don't you think the speed and the range of an aircraft would matter in a potential God forbid conflict? As per my analysis most modern air forces around the world are concentrating on Air Superiority and unfortunately I don't see any equipment in PAFs inventory or in future plans, which could do this task and in my opinion we don't have any thing to face an air superiority fighter.

range matters when you live in a big country.
Current range of F-16s and Jf-17s are more than enough to cover FOBs of IAF.
Our doctrine is not like USAF where they take control over the entire airspace of the country. Our Primary mission is to counter any aerial threats OVER PAKISTANI AIRSPACE, launch strikes on FOBs as necessary, and finally provide support to ground troops.

[Farooqi1]

umm you do realize that F-35 is also a single engine fighter, and it is very under-powered!
btw Rafale* and most of the MKIs will be posted up north to counter the Chinese.
We have a potent aerial defence force with Jf-17 and F-16s (hopefully J-10b in future)

Now its up to you to accept that fact or not.

However the only thing we do lack are long range SAM systems.



range matters when you live in a big country.
Current range of F-16s and Jf-17s are more than enough to cover FOBs of IAF.
Our doctrine is not like USAF where they take control over the entire airspace of the country. Our Primary mission is to counter any aerial threats OVER PAKISTANI AIRSPACE, launch strikes on FOBs as necessary, and finally provide support to ground troops.

Yep; F35 is a single engine but you are forgetting something that it is an stealth and loaded with all the other goodies which I really wish we could have in our JF-17s. Also I read on IDF site that first batch of Rafels are going to be deployed in Ambala which is I believe right next to Lahore .

Also if we are planning not to have deep strikes then that is a big disadvantage. We will be fully covered by their fighters and in reply we can't go deep in their territory. Also when I say air superiority by that I mean Air superiority over Pakistani Air Space.

[razgriz19]

Yep; F35 is a single engine but you are forgetting something that it is an stealth and loaded with all the other goodies which I really wish we could have in our JF-17s. Also I read on IDF site that first batch of Rafels are going to be deployed in Ambala which is I believe right next to Lahore .

Also if we are planning not to have deep strikes then that is a big disadvantage. We will be fully covered by their fighters and in reply we can't go deep in their territory. Also when I say air superiority by that I mean Air superiority over Pakistani Air Space.

We have ballistic and cruise missiles for deep strike.
And Jf-17 has enough range and loiter time to take on enemy jets over Pakistani air space. And don't forget next batch will have aerial refueling capability. Armed with SD-10s, Jf-17 possess enough fire power to take on any fighter.
What we really need right now is to improve its defencive and electronic warfare suit.

[Farooqi1]

We have ballistic and cruise missiles for deep strike.
And Jf-17 has enough range and loiter time to take on enemy jets over Pakistani air space. And don't forget next batch will have aerial refueling capability. Armed with SD-10s, Jf-17 possess enough fire power to take on any fighter.
What we really need right now is to improve its defencive and electronic warfare suit.

What is the story with SAMS? I mean are the expensive or nobody is willing to sell it to us?

[AUz]

AUz.

I agree with you on SAMS but problem is that we do not have 400+ fighters loaded with BVRS. Plus don't you think the speed and the range of an aircraft would matter in a potential God forbid conflict? As per my analysis most modern air forces around the world are concentrating on Air Superiority and unfortunately I don't see any equipment in PAFs inventory or in future plans, which could do this task and in my opinion we don't have any thing to face an air superiority fighter.

Well O.K .. Lets cut it down to 250!

So approximately 250 fighter aircrafts loaded with BVRs and supported by AWACS/AEW&C will be facing Indian thrust into Pakistan. In the Pakistani airspace , we will have numerical advantage over IAF fighters. Add medium range SAMs and electronic warfare in the picture. PAF can effectively thwart IAF from gaining any advantage over the battle field. This is the main purpose of the force. PAF's offensive role will be very limited. Pakistan Army's Strategic Missile Command will carry out ballistic and cruise missile strikes all over India , until the cease fire is called !

Don't forget about stand-off weapons like Ra'ad that Pakistan Air Force carries. PAF doesn't need to go deep inside Indian territory. It can devastate Indian forward air bases by using its stand-off weapons effectively. Also , upto 15-20 days , Pakistan can hold full-thrust all out Indian invasion of its land. Remember , there would be thousands of tanks , aircrafts , soldiers , submarines , ships , artillery etc that would be battling out Indian forces in the sea , land, and air ...so we are good. Until then (first 15-20 days) , Pakistan would have inflicted some serious damage on Indian Forces , Indian cities , Indian infrastructure , and specially Indian economy. Indians won't even think of taking the war that far. A week is the MAXIMUM Indians would fight before the cease fire would be called by both sides. Indians won't risk crossing Pakistan's nuclear threshold by taking the war to more than 15 days.

So we are good against Indian aggression ( a thing they won't even dare to do in the first place). The only most-important thing we need is long range effective radar and SAM network....so we can monitor and aim at Indian Air Force well within Indian border. In this way , their "Cold-Start" and "Surgical Strike" initiative will be effectively taken out by Pakistan Air Force and Pakistan Army!

Chill ....

[The Great One]

As long as detection [at max. touted range] and firing [with your SD-10 or wateva] are the only components of A2A warfare [as the posters are led to believe here]. PAF is safe and secure.

[AUz]

Am i wrong to say that pakistan can not afford a standoff(border skirmish) with india?
even if the skirmish is just for 3 days,the cost will be huge for the pakistani economy,more than indian economy.
these kind of situations happening in every 5 to 10 years will permanently keep the pakistani economy weak. This may be what is happening to pakistan in the previous 15 years?

and oh...hi this is my first post

Well , this is what a naive mind would think. Pakistan is engaged in a costly war for 8 years now , what makes you think that we would mind having a little skirmish with India at border? It is the Indian economy that is growing at 8%. India will be the one losing more in a conflict with Pakistan , not the vice versa. A war with Pakistan will cause all foreign investors to run away and in the middle of your growth period , this is disastrous. Indian economy right now is "taking-off" ..If it gets the "shock" of the war with Pakistan , there is nothing worse that can happen to Indian economy right now. Pakistan economy is pretty "tough" if you compare it with Indian economy. In 1990's , you guys weren't even facing 1/4 of what we are facing today and yet you guys went into "negative" growth. On the other hand , just in the last 8 years , Pakistani economy has faced worst floods of history , worst earth-quake of history , worst and most costly war of its history , and worst kind of terrorism..Despite ALL this , Pakistani economy is STILL "growing" (even though at a very slow pace) ... Many other countries would have badly crumbled by now under this much pressure. It must tells you about the resilience of Pakistanis as a nation. Inshallah , Pakistan's economy will recover in the coming days ... Plus : We are just talking about defending. We won't invade India. We are talking about the scenario of so-called Indian "Cold Start Doctrine" being implemented on Pakistani borders and assessing Pakistan Air Force's weaknesses in this context.

Welcome to the Forum though! You'll learn alot of things for sure. Just like many other Indians learnt after coming here ...

As long as detection [at max. touted range] and firing [with your SD-10 or wateva] are the only components of A2A warfare [as the posters are led to believe here]. PAF is safe and secure.

Oh you are genius. Now read the thread again .... we are discussing "weaknesses" of PAF here , not "Aerial warfare in the sub-continent" .. We do know about all the variables involved in the Aerial wars etc ... but the major/most-important "weakness" of PAF is absence of highly-integrated long-range radar and SAM network..This is the main premise..do you agree with it? No? then put your points....

Plus : We are just confining ourselves to the aerial defence of Pakistan ....just FYI ...

[Peaceful Civilian]

We need Features such as SPECTRA, Sead and Premium Jammers in the multirole fighter aircraft.
UCAVs are required with the cruise missile.
SAM technology.
AWACS with jammers.

[Oscar]

It must tells you about the resilience of Pakistanis as a nation.

Yet this must not go to our heads...
The French also went through tough times and thought that whatever tough times came against any enemy.. The French "el'an"(fighting spirit) would overcome any odds.
Sadly, this did not go to well for them in WW1 or WW2.. and generally now.. the french are riled incorrectly for being people who run away from a fight.
The simple fact is ..in the words of the nutcase in "Under siege 2"(Actually said by Louis Pasteur)
"Chance favours the prepared mind(or in this case a nation).

[Fireurimagination]

IAF will try and ground PAF by going after the infrastructure and the vice versa from ground as well as from air and even from sea (in case of India), India will have numerical advantage, technological advantage and advantage of size and depth. If India succeeds in delivering a hard and deep preemptive strike on PAF I believe all then PAF could do during the tenure of the war would be to defend itself

[The Great One]

Well , this is what a naive mind would think. Pakistan is engaged in a costly war for 8 years now , what makes you think that we would mind having a little skirmish with India at border? It is the Indian economy that is growing at 8%. India will be the one losing more in a conflict with Pakistan , not the vice versa. A war with Pakistan will cause all foreign investors to run away and in the middle of your growth period , this is disastrous. Indian economy right now is "taking-off" ..If it gets the "shock" of the war with Pakistan , there is nothing worse that can happen to Indian economy right now. Pakistan economy is pretty "tough" if you compare it with Indian economy. In 1990's , you guys weren't even facing 1/4 of what we are facing today and yet you guys went into "negative" growth. On the other hand , just in the last 8 years , Pakistani economy has faced worst floods of history , worst earth-quake of history , worst and most costly war of its history , and worst kind of terrorism..Despite ALL this , Pakistani economy is STILL "growing" (even though at a very slow pace) ... Many other countries would have badly crumbled by now under this much pressure. It must tells you about the resilience of Pakistanis as a nation. Inshallah , Pakistan's economy will recover in the coming days ... Plus : We are just talking about defending. We won't invade India. We are talking about the scenario of so-called Indian "Cold Start Doctrine" being implemented on Pakistani borders and assessing Pakistan Air Force's weaknesses in this context.

Welcome to the Forum though! You'll learn alot of things for sure. Just like many other Indians learnt after coming here ...



Oh you are genius. Now read the thread again .... we are discussing "weaknesses" of PAF here , not "Aerial warfare in the sub-continent" .. We do know about all the variables involved in the Aerial wars etc ... but the major/most-important "weakness" of PAF is absence of highly-integrated long-range radar and SAM network..This is the main premise..do you agree with it? No? then put your points....

Plus : We are just confining ourselves to the aerial defence of Pakistan ....just FYI ...

I won't even go into the rest of your post here and and confine myself ontopic whilst giving you the benefit of doubt. [coz I honestly don't believe you are as stupid as your post makes you look like].
Is aerial warfare not a part of the aerial defence of Pakistan. Does aerial warfare or specifically BVR engagement not constitute the various components of Air Defence of Pakistan.
That post of mine was a pre-reply reply to some of the posters here who belong in the school of thought which teaches that
'JF-17 can track targets of 5m² target @ 105 km. It has SD-10B with a range of 110km. It has RCS of F-16 class therefore about 3m². MKI has RCS of 20m² and can track a 5m² target at 150kms and therefore track JF-17 at about 120 km. It has R-77 with a range of 80km. Also JF-17 has home advantage of SAMS and other support systems [AEW&CS] along with superior pilots owing to an automatic victory. And this just the low-end fighter of PAF that too against the high-end fighter of IAF, so all-in-all, their is no reason to worry'.
@topic
Given that hif-fi SAMS are a major neccesity of PAF but it doesn't really do well on the combat-jet front either. Flying against repeated swarms of Su 30MKI and Mig29 isn't that easy a job. In addition their are several other things to consider - operational readiness or availability of the jets [which I read from some not-so-good source wasn't good in case of F-16s] supply lines and logistics and as well as objectives of IAF [whether surgical strikes or air supremacy]. etc. Which none of us can really determine.

[AUz]

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I won't even go into the rest of your post here and and confine myself ontopic whilst giving you the benefit of doubt. [coz I honestly don't believe you are as stupid as your post makes you look like].
Is aerial warfare not a part of the aerial defence of Pakistan. Does aerial warfare or specifically BVR engagement not constitute the various components of Air Defence of Pakistan.
That post of mine was a pre-reply reply to some of the posters here who belong in the school of thought which teaches that
'JF-17 can track targets of 5m² target @ 105 km. It has SD-10B with a range of 110km. It has RCS of F-16 class therefore about 3m². MKI has RCS of 20m² and can track a 5m² target at 150kms and therefore track JF-17 at about 120 km. It has R-77 with a range of 80km. Also JF-17 has home advantage of SAMS and other support systems [AEW&CS] along with superior pilots owing to an automatic victory. And this just the low-end fighter of PAF that too against the high-end fighter of IAF, so all-in-all, their is no reason to worry'.

Don't come out as another dumbo little ****** kid. Stay on topic and stop your "pre-reply reply" bullsh!t (whatever that means) ... Make your point "specific" ... Please specify the "posters" in this thread who belong to the above mentioned school of thought (to whom you are pre-reply replying) .... Stop making a fool out of yourself , ******.

Does aerial warfare or specifically BVR engagement not constitute the various components of Air Defence of Pakistan.

Dummy , we are discussing "WEAKNESSES" of PAF (when it comes to "defending" the skies of Pakistan...leaving out offensive role for now) .. BVR engagement is not a "weakness" of PAF in regards to aerial defense of the country. If you think BVR engagements etc would be an "weakness" of PAF then put your point in a post. Stop de-railing the thread any further,child.