H2 And H4 are AAM Or AGM?

[Arsalan]

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enjoy the concept...

note:
it is not the H2 or the H4 system

[TaimiKhan]

there is a strange thing being reported.
the H-2 and H-4 although glide bombs for ground attack roles were actually developed from T-dater Air to air missile by NESCOM.

God knows what these guys are upto, modifying an air to air missile to develop a ground attack glide bomb, amazing!!

Source of the thing being reported ??

[Mark Sien]

there is a strange thing being reported.
the H-2 and H-4 although glide bombs for ground attack roles were actually developed from T-dater Air to air missile by NESCOM.

God knows what these guys are upto, modifying an air to air missile to develop a ground attack glide bomb, amazing!!

This is inaccurate. Denel just began development of T-Darter in 2008 and is now looking for co-financial/production partners for the missile. Secondly, H-2/H-4-series is widely regarded as a variation of the Denel Raptor-series. That said, the T-Darter program was offered to Pakistan in 1999, and it is quite possible that Pakistan will adopt the current T-Darter in its future AAM inventory.

[Arsalan]

This is inaccurate. Denel just began development of T-Darter in 2008 and is now looking for co-financial/production partners for the missile. Secondly, H-2/H-4-series is widely regarded as a variation of the Denel Raptor-series. That said, the T-Darter program was offered to Pakistan in 1999, and it is quite possible that Pakistan will adopt the current T-Darter in its future AAM inventory.

yes that is what sound more accurate.. that why i was wondering what is this report about.
there was also a typo error on my par, the passage reporte it to be R-darter and not T-darter, my mistake..
what is even more disgusting is that after taimi asked the source and looked out (i read that on *********************) for that passage i just found that the as the back of that passage the source was
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Wikipedia!

sorry guys!
My Bad!

[Arsalan]

the general concept is actually that the H-4 are derived from Raptor program.
here is an article from Janes:

Development
During 2003 reports began to surface in Pakistan of a clandestine weapons programme, identified as 'H-4'. Brief references to the H-4 first emerged in April 2003, when a test, of an uncertain nature, was announced. On this occasion the H-4 was described as an active-radar air-to-air missile. Observers saw it as no coincidence that reports of such a programme in Pakistan should appear immediately after the first test of India's Astra AAM. Then, in December, further reports from Pakistan stated that the H-4 missile had completed a second phase of successful testing, following launches from a Mirage III. However, this December newspaper account was confused and contradictory as the H-4 was described as both an air-to-air and air-to-surface weapon. The Mirage was again identified as the launch platform and the H-4 was reported to be a product of the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), together with Pakistan's Missile Organisation and Air Weapons Complex.In March 2006 more confused press reports were published in Pakistan noting that the PAF had fielded a so-called 'Joint Stand-Off Weapon System'. Published accounts described a GPS/INS-guided weapon with man-in-the-loop terminal homing and a range of about 70 km. Several sources went on to declare that this weapon was the US-built Raytheon AGM-154 Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW) but no AGM-154s have been delivered to Pakistan, and the PAF does not have any aircraft capable of launching them. Jane's believes that these reports relate to the Raptor/H-4 in PAF service with, perhaps, a deliberately deceptive name

[maverick1977]

I guess, H4 can cause far more damage than AGM142 and that too at a longer range.

AGM 142
380kgs HE
Range: 75kms

H4
440kgs HE
120kms

[Arsalan]

I guess, H4 can cause far more damage than AGM142 and that too at a longer range.

AGM 142
380kgs HE
Range: 75kms

H4
440kgs HE
120kms

i hope it is as accurate and smart as the AGM 142. the AGM 142 incorporates latest IR seekres and other guaidance protocols. raptor stands in the same league so the hopes woth H-4 are also good and high..

regards!

[Arsalan]

here is an abstract from an intresting article:

Military industrial cooperation between Pakistan and South Africa dates back to the mid-1990s when the PAF sought Denel Aerospace’s expertise for developing a family of precision-guided munitions for ground attack as well as a family of air combat missiles. In February 1996, soon after the PAF concluded a US$50 million deal with Italy’s Galileo Avionica for the supply of 30 Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars for the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs, contractual negotiations began on a $160 million contract with Kentron to cover the licenced-production by AERO of the latter’s U-Darter within-visual-range air-to-air missile (a reverse-engineered R550 Magic-2 missile developed by MBDA). Following this, the PAF by April 1999 had commenced contractual negotiations with Denel Aerospace for co-development of a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) under a project codenamed H-2, as well as a family of ALCMs under Project H-4. Flight tests of the BVRAAM got underway in 2001 and the resultant missile is now the AERO-produced variant of Kentron’s 60km-range R-Darter missile, which in turn is a derivative of the Derby BVRAAM developed by Israel’s RAFAEL Armament Authority.

The first ALCM to be developed under Project H-4 was a 120km-range surgical missile armed with high-explosive runway-cratering bomblets, as well as a passive radiation seeker for targeting hostile ground-based air defence radars. This is a derivative of the MUPSOW ALCM that has been under development by Kentron since the early 1990s and incorporates twin side-mounted air intakes and fixed horizontal and vertical tailfins. Thus far, the PAF has conducted two successful qualification flights of the MUPSOW, these being done on April 22 and December 17, in 2003.

Savunma ve Stratejik Analizler: Babur LACM & Ra’ad ALCM Detailed

regards!

[mjnaushad]

here is an abstract from an intresting article:


Savunma ve Stratejik Analizler: Babur LACM & Ra’ad ALCM Detailed

regards!

The bottom line is

H2 is A2A
H4 is A2G


I think thats why it was so confusing....

Following this, the PAF by April 1999 had commenced contractual negotiations with Denel Aerospace for co-development of a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) under a project codenamed H-2, as well as a family of ALCMs under Project H-4.

[truepakistani17]

but it terms H2 and H4 both as projects and not only singular missiles.
can it be a case of serise of variants just like Hataf??

[Arsalan]

but it terms H2 and H4 both as projects and not only singular missiles.
can it be a case of serise of variants just like Hataf??

exactly,
this is a good point,

Military industrial cooperation between Pakistan and South Africa dates back to the mid-1990s when the PAF sought Denel Aerospace’s expertise for developing a family of precision-guided munitions for ground attack as well as a family of air combat missiles. In February 1996, soon after the PAF concluded a US$50 million deal with Italy’s Galileo Avionica for the supply of 30 Grifo-M3 airborne multi-mode pulse-Doppler radars for the upgraded Mirage IIIEAs, contractual negotiations began on a $160 million contract with Kentron to cover the licenced-production by AERO of the latter’s U-Darter within-visual-range air-to-air missile (a reverse-engineered R550 Magic-2 missile developed by MBDA). Following this, the PAF by April 1999 had commenced contractual negotiations with Denel Aerospace for co-development of a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) under a project codenamed H-2, as well as a family of ALCMs under Project H-4.

i have always been vocal about both being Air Launched Ground Attack precesion missiles but now i have some doubts over H2.

we have heared about AWC developing AAM, can this be the project H2 developing U-Darter and perhaps also some BVRAAMs

[fatman17]

i think the H-2 is a AGM (JSOW) and was demonstrated in Ex-High Mark-2010while the H-4 is still shrouded in mystery - my guess it is a A2A (BVR).

[mjnaushad]

i think the H-2 is a AGM (JSOW) and was demonstrated in Ex-High Mark-2010while the H-4 is still shrouded in mystery - my guess it is a A2A (BVR).

or could be opposite...as in some reports its said that H2 have range of 60KM and H4 120 KM....Now if we look at other projects of the same type world wide 60KM is pretty decent for a BVRAAM missile. and H4 with 120KM for A2G glide bomb makes sense...

[fatman17]

or could be opposite...as in some reports its said that H2 have range of 60KM and H4 120 KM....Now if we look at other projects of the same type world wide 60KM is pretty decent for a BVRAAM missile. and H4 with 120KM for A2G glide bomb makes sense...

very possible!

[Arsalan]

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i think the H-2 is a AGM (JSOW) and was demonstrated in Ex-High Mark-2010while the H-4 is still shrouded in mystery - my guess it is a A2A (BVR).

but sir the article tell completely other way around,,
H2 as AAM and H4 as the AGM,,
i cannot question you knowledge but i guess it is really been kept under covers.. i hope it really is a family of missiles just like hataf serise and we will see more and more missiles in years to come.

i am trying to get some thing usefull from AWC by help of a friend ar PAC
you also please update if you know anything new, if it not compromising nationn security.

thank you!
Arsalan Aslam