JF-17/FC-1 Thunder Fighter

[Owais]

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Why are you comparing 1980's aircraft to a Aircraft made in 1990's. MIG 29 has range payload, It got better missiles, I would take the Russian missiles than cheap chinese knock-off's anyday.

who is comparing??
it was you who compare first see that..

Whatever you said is available for the MIG 29's too, So it is still MIG's, JF-17 victory will depend on wether its advesery will have a 80's MIG or not.

what is the use of payload in A to A combat? please explain? JF-17 has a maximun payload of 3800kg and it can carry 4 BVRAAM WITH 2 SRAAM side winders. each missile is enough to kill every kind of plane and please compare the specs of SD-10 with R-77 you will not find much diffrence.
also, JF-17 has an strike radius of 1250km and ferry range of 3000km.so its not a point defence fighter.

[Bull]

India getting enough MKIs from Russia and the supply of RD-93 are fairly illogical connections. It would take India at least three more (at the very best) years to even get close to the 140 number.

India already has 50 + 40 more is orders which is off the shelf + 12 planes a year = 126 MKIs in 3 years.

Do you really think that China and PAF would be sitting on their ***** waiting for the retarded Russians to allow export of an obsolete engine by that time? Think again!

China aint waiting for the RD-93 PAF is.

Obsolute, dont call it that way, its going to power your latest fighters.

That is a good news from a leverage standpoint as what it does is that it not only eats into the Russian Mig-29 market but also leaves the order of 150 RD-93 enginese in the middle of nowhere.

Russia isnt keen on selling the RD-93 powered MIg 29 anymore. They are hardselling the SMT/35 version.

JF-17 depending on how its modified and glassed can easily run circles around the Mig-29 on the export market.

Pakistanis calimed Russian were creating blockades on india's Brahmos sale bcoz we were checkmating their russian CMs. And now you are saying Russia would supply an engine which would kill its own baby.

What replaces the 4000 odd J-6/7s in the PLAAF inventory??

What ?? they have 4000 fighters.??

[Bull]

On March 23, 2 JF-17 with PAF colours will fly over Islamabad and Mushraff would declare that PAF would start inducting JF-17 from March 2008 onwards to a number of 150 or 200.

Chineese would get one more year to get the WS-13 cracking.

[Owais]

On March 23, 2 JF-17 with PAF colours will fly over Islamabad and Mushraff would declare that PAF would start inducting JF-17 from March 2008 onwards to a number of 150 or 200.

Chineese would get one more year to get the WS-13 cracking.

Only two??
I thought that number is 4.:wall:
can you give me a link regarding that news??

[Bull]

Only two??
I thought that number is 4.:wall:
can you give me a link regarding that news??

My god i didnt know i was being so closely watched. 2 or 4 , the point i was tryign to make was that, they will announce induction starting from 2008 March onwards buying everybody concerned more time.

[blain2]

India already has 50 + 40 more is orders which is off the shelf + 12 planes a year = 126 MKIs in 3 years.

Same thing.

China aint waiting for the RD-93 PAF is.

Obsolute, dont call it that way, its going to power your latest fighters.

It would be obsolete if PAF and China do not use it in the next 3 years. The Chinese would have a better and much improved engine by then. Wise cracks don't help, pay attention to what I am writing.

Russia isnt keen on selling the RD-93 powered MIg 29 anymore. They are hardselling the SMT/35 version.

Hmm really? Here you guys are going about setting up a silly assembly line for RD-33/93 engines and you are trying tell me that Russians won't care if Chinese are selling an aircraft with the same engine? SMT and Mig-35 at least still run the RD-33 product which essentially is the same thing as the RD-93. RD-93 never powered the Mig-29. It is a modification of the RD-33 and is being provided to China. The point I am making here is that both engines are of the same class. So if the Chinese come up with WS-13 on the FC-1 then not only does the RD-33 powered Mig-29 suffer in terms of sales, Chinese may refuse further purchases of RD-93 as well. The Russians have already said that if they do not provide the engines, somebody else would. So competition for Mig-29 is a foregone conclusion. Against Western fighters, Mig-29 does not stand a chance (except for those on a budget and not willing to deal with the nuiances of the West), with the WS-13 powered FC-1, the Russians would lose a bit more of the market against their Mig-29 (the funny thing about all of this is that Russians are selling aircraft that even VVS has not inducted ). So you can imagine the margins are even lower for the Russians on the sales of SMT and Mig-35.

Pakistanis calimed Russian were creating blockades on india's Brahmos sale bcoz we were checkmating their russian CMs. And now you are saying Russia would supply an engine which would kill its own baby.

Read my point. It was not about the engines. It was about the potential of the aircraft. And China would tell the Russians to **** off once the WS-13 attains full blown production. Competetion to Russian aviation industry is inevitable from China...they know it and can't really do much about it because China also buys a lot of stuff from them.

What ?? they have 4000 fighters.??

Yes they do.

[Adux]

Blain,

RD-33 is taken off the market right now of various issues, All the brand new MIG's come with RD-33K,

JF-17 might be very important project for Pakistani's, But the world otherwise aint even bothered about it. It is no way capable being a worthy adversary of the MIG- 29's. Lets stop going in circles, You were first talking about the RD-33 Engine, Now after Russian Defence Minister announcement, you are hanging on to the point of WS-13; I am sure WS-13 will power the JF-17 and it will make up numbers in PAF, but to say it will run circles around the MIG 29's is far fetched. Please trying telling this non-pakistani forums

[blain2]

Blain,

RD-33 is taken off the market right now of various issues, All the brand new MIG's come with RD-33K,

JF-17 might be very important project for Pakistani's, But the world otherwise aint even bothered about it. It is no way capable being a worthy adversary of the MIG- 29's. Lets stop going in circles, You were first talking about the RD-33 Engine, Now after Russian Defence Minister announcement, you are hanging on to the point of WS-13; I am sure WS-13 will power the JF-17 and it will make up numbers in PAF, but to say it will run circles around the MIG 29's is far fetched. Please trying telling this non-pakistani forums

Adux,

You know what ticks me off is the typical comeback from people like you and I am venting here because of the fact that I am dealing with same illogical points about the superiority of the Mig-29 without ANY facts whatsoever. Just because Mr. Adux says so does not cut it. I have been on plenty of non-Pakistani forums and believe me it depends on where you are. I am not the one who would go on and on about the superiority of the JF-17. I am simply trying to figure out the factual points as to why some here believe that Mig-29 after the MKI is God's gift to aviation and why other platforms cannot compete against it (its got the worse combat record of all the current Russian aircraft). You can go to F-16.net (which without a fraction of doubt has the highest density of aviation professionals on it out of *any* other military aviation forum), the oft discussed performance of Mig-29 is not very good. Now when I talk about supposed superiority of the Mig-29, what is in your Baaz that the JF-17 cannot counter? You have yet to induct the Mig-35 and the upgrading of the existing Mig-29s will definetly increase their potential but why can't the same be said of the JF-17? I have already countered the various points about the illconceived superiority of the Mig-29 over the JF-17, but there has been an overall paradigm shift in the employment of aircraft. Superior manueverability alone does not cut it. You cannot put up superior MTOW of an aircraft to assume that in air combat it will be better than the other aircraft. You can no longer discount the potential of aircraft in terms of avionics upgrades (this applies to all aircraft) which can actually take them from a third gen to a 4.5 gen aircraft. So all this idiotic talk of "please don't compare Mig-29 to JF-17" is just factless bs..sorry to say.

In any case this is the last one on this topic from me. I see that its not going anywhere at least factually.

[Bull]

Same thing..

my bad....

[Adux]

Blain,

Let me just say I gracefully bow out, Cuz facts are there to be seen, There is no need for me to bring in any technical details, JF-17 v/s X has been on the rounds from the day PAF got involved.
I do visit other forums, None of them puts JF-17 above the MIG 29, F-16 etc. And i am a member of f-16.net, though i dont post over there, and also at keypub. I wasnt talking about Indian MIGS, we were talking about the MIG-29 Market remember.Anyways the Indian MIGs are getting the SMT upgrade at $863 million dollars slated to be complelted by 2009
JF-17 v/s LCA. makes sense for me. MiG 29, I dont think so. And I am not going to take it just cuz MR.Blain said so.

[blain2]

Blain,

Let me just say I gracefully bow out, Cuz facts are there to be seen, There is no need for me to bring in any technical details, JF-17 v/s X has been on the rounds from the day PAF got involved.
I do visit other forums, None of them puts JF-17 above the MIG 29, F-16 etc. And i am a member of f-16.net, though i dont post over there, and also at keypub. I wasnt talking about Indian MIGS, we were talking about the MIG-29 Market remember.Anyways the Indian MIGs are getting the SMT upgrade at $863 million dollars slated to be complelted by 2009
JF-17 v/s LCA. makes sense for me. MiG 29, I dont think so. And I am not going to take it just cuz MR.Blain said so.

ok so we agree to disagree. Lets just end it there. I remain to be convinced technically. But no worries. I am sure this issue will come up again knowing the tendencies.

[Adux]

ok so we agree to disagree. Lets just end it there. I remain to be convinced technically. But no worries. I am sure this issue will come up again knowing the tendencies.

Aint the world a better place, when people are civilized, I hope people take us as examples...
lol

[HAIDER]

Sir, my countdown for march 23rd has started...for JF17..

[Keysersoze]

Ok there was an interesting article published in Kanwa regarding this. It was translated by a guy from the sino website . Here is a link to his blog.

http://china-pla.blogspot.com/

I will also put a copy of his summary on here for you guys


* As we know, Pakistan joined China to develope an AWACS, this fufills PAF's requirements.
* several month ago, the AWACS came to Pakistan, 2 groups of Pakistanis did extensive testing on that AWACS. First time Haq has officially admitted the visit to a Western reporter
* China will transfer some AWACS technology to Pakistan
* Also, PAF has already signed a contract with Saab for Erieye in May of 2006, first one coming into service in the beginning of 2009
* 38th lab apparently developed this for Pakistan (maybe called KJ-200P), uses a mechanically scanning radar, the platform is a type 3 Y-8. This is already called Y-9 (My note: I'm pretty sure this bit is not true)
* KJ-200P (let's just refer it as that for now) came to Chakala in July for testing.
* Haq refers to this as AWACS and Saab as AEW&C, so maybe this points to KJ-200P offering more functionality. also, maybe this will form a hi-lo combination.
* The regional air power is steadily rising, JF-17 cannot possibly meet all of PAF's requirements, that's why PAF has started discussion with China regarding the induction of J-10, to be named FC-20 and treated as the "hi-tech fighter"
* Pakistan will not restrict its military purchase to one country. It will consider importing more Block 52 F-16s.
* Pakistan has sent numerous people to Chengdu to look over J-10. Clearly, F-16's main opponent in sales is not JF-17, but J-10.
* Also military cooperation between China and Pakistan is not just restricted to weapon sales but also a naval exercise with multiple nation is already planned.
* Also considering aerial and ground exercise in the near future.

With PAC on JF-17

* by end of 2007, PAF will have 8 JF-17s, weaponary is still in talks, this is according to the signed agreement.
* can't confirm how many JF-17s will arrive before March, but JF-17 will definitely fly on March 23rd in Islamabad
* Two competing radars, one by Nanjing (lab 14) and other by Wuxi (lab 607). Doing testing on both radar as expected, they are both very good radar.
* First couple to be equipped with Wuxi radar, the testing has already started, so far, the testing of performance has achieved extremely results
* Out of the 8, some will be equipped with Nanjing and some with Wuxi radar
* The first batch of JF-17 will definitely be using Chinese radar, they are already doing flight testing with them.
* Pakistan currently looking at different competing systems and figuring out how many of each type it wants and when does JF-17 need them? They call it standard I and II system
* Can't comment on whether weapon plans have been finalized, that's to be determined by the PAF ACM
* He can confirm that there is no issue over the engine for JF-17
* PAC has repairs F-16 engine, produced the engine for the Mirage planes and repaired the engines for F-7s and K-8s, engine maintenance for RD-93 shouldn't be an issue. PAC will obviously need China's help on this.
* Production preparation for JF-17 has already begun in early 2007, mass production will begin in January of 2008
* Will receive the production line (all the necessary equipment) and technical help from AVIC1 and CATIC by 2007
* PAF wishes to produce enough JF-17s to replace F-7, looking to eventually produce 20 to 25 JF-17s a year
* 150 is only the fix order, more will be ordered. There is also requirements for more
* Feels there is good prospects for exports
* Currently, the FBW is only in one axis, will eventually have a full FBW (also very soon).

# Originally expected the Chinese radar to be KLJ-10, but that's not the case
# Galileo Avionica still wishes to win JF-17 contract due to their success with F-7PG. They believe that Pakistan is getting Chinese radar firm to fight out first and then getting the winner to fight out with Western radar firms.
# China has offered a weapon package of SD-10, LT-2 and LS-6, but PAF has yet to finalize on their plans.
# Starting from January 2008, PAC will produce 15-20 JF-17s per year. Current plan is 15 for 2008 and 20 for 2009. Finally hopes for 50% of JF-17 production in PAC.
# PAC wishes to be able to do repairs on RD-93 in the future.
# Pakistan wishes to eventually have a full digit quadriplex FBW system.
# Norinco displayed a 500kg LGB called GB-1 in IDEAS 2006, similar to Krasnopol, which they somehow developed for guiding artillery and aerial bombs.
# Norinco is not only trying to sell it for JF-17 but also A-5. At this point PAF thinks A-5 is about to retire, so has no interest in putting it on there.
# GB1 bomb is similar in out appearance to LT-2, but with different guidance.
# PAF got GBU-12 (paveway LGBs) from US and also the license production for GBU-12's laser guidance pod. LT-2 and GBU-12 are pretty much from the same generation, so LT-2 is facing "domestic" competition.

[Neo]

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Great find Keyser, very informative
Thanks for sharing!