Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[hataf]

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the ideas of engine manufacturing in Pakistan is given in JF-17 thread few months ago and many of u even elite members went against it. now as u all know that JF-17 has a great potential in export market, now every air craft manufacturing company in the world will take it a threat for them and they will never let their technology to us.

for example

FRANCE

now RUSSIA

my point is only that if we want to see our bird flying we have to master in every aspect engine, avionic, air frame and ewf suit

some of u say that we don't have money.

i think for that we need to do some agreement with other countries on the basis of TOT and Co R&D, i mean with Egypt, Saudiarabia Turkey libia etc

and with the help of china

i think its time to take initiative

[Luftwaffe]

A little off topic..
A bitter defeat haunts soviets yet till this day, they can get along well with their cold war rival the american pie but breaks down in tears when it comes to Pakistan, as long as russians will be emotional of the past lost war, they'll damage themselves more in long term, even though americans have an agenda I like they way they come forward make friends regardless of the duration unlike russians sitting in the dark corner isolating themselves due to the bitter defeat by the hands of parties of which one was Pakistan. "you got owned " "Get Over".

[satishkumarcsc]

A little off topic..
A bitter defeat haunts soviets yet till this day, they can get along well with their cold war rival the american pie but breaks down in tears when it comes to Pakistan, as long as russians will be emotional of the past lost war, they'll damage themselves more in long term, even though americans have an agenda I like they way they come forward make friends regardless of the duration unlike russians sitting in the dark corner isolating themselves due to the bitter defeat by the hands of parties of which one was Pakistan. "you got owned " "Get Over".

It is not about your airforce. I is about the sale to the EAF.

[dk33]

It is not about your airforce. I is about the sale to the EAF.

What did the Russians think the initial approvals for re-export of those engines to six nations including Egypt meant?

[dk33]

It looks like Pakistan is more angry than China even though it was
China which was looking to break in the inter national fighter plane market

I don't think there has been any official reaction from either China or Pakistan on this news report.

Also keep in mind that so far the Russian government has not officially indicated that they agree with the positions taken by the Russian AC manufacturers.

[dk33]

They didn t expect JF 17 to be such aggressively priced at 15 million dollars.

A successful sale of JF 17 at 15 million a piece and that too with Russian engine in it would be a disaster for Russia

China's first and direct competition in the low cost arms market is
with Russia.

The estimated per-unit production price of the JF-17 has been known for years, so that is hardly a good excuse.

[Luftwaffe]

No this is not over reaction. Over reaction is being showed by russians most of the time. am I wrong when i said russian got owned and should Get over with. Million men to control how did they got owned by afghan jihadis, less in numbers less in weapons. Looks like you over reacted and hesitantly replied.

It looks like Pakistan is more angry than China even though it was
China which was looking to break in the inter national fighter plane market Once the new Chinese engine is ready then JF 17 will again compete for international orders.

You fool did you even go through JF-17 Thunder thread?
Are you trying to tell us that China offered FC-1 project?
Pakistan is not angry, Pakistan/China already decided that China should develop engine for FC-1/Thunder to provide with complete package to its buyers and so its going well for both China/Pakistan. Its not toyoto engine to be manufactured in just a month and installed.

[satishkumarcsc]

What did the Russians think the initial approvals for re-export of those engines to six nations including Egypt meant?

As you and I havent read the initial norms laid down by the Russians in the agreement we will never know who is at fault here. The Russians are protecting their business interest here. You heard the Americans cry about Gripen in the MMRCA contest.

One of the sources confirmed that Pogosyan has virtually blocked the deal with China by writing to the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) and Rosoboronexport (ROE) state arms exporter that FC-1 is a direct rival of Russian MiG-29 fighters in several foreign markets," the daily writes noting that Russian and Chinese fighters are in the race for an Egyptian contract.

It is not the government that backed off initially. It was the UAC that directed the government to back off as you can clearly see.

[dk33]

One of the sources confirmed that Pogosyan has virtually blocked the deal with China by writing to the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) and Rosoboronexport (ROE) state arms exporter that FC-1 is a direct rival of Russian MiG-29 fighters in several foreign markets," the daily writes noting that Russian and Chinese fighters are in the race for an Egyptian contract.

It is not the government that backed off initially. It was the UAC that directed the government to back off as you can clearly see.

Yes, but Pogosyan has only written about its concerns, there is no word on whether those concerns have actually changed the Russian position on exporting the RD-93.

In fact even these 'concerns' leave wiggle room for continued export:

"I am not against the re-export of individual technologies, but it should be done in agreement with the producers of finished-product, so that this re-export does not damage their interests," Pogosyan told Kommersant.

I don't believe (based on information available so far) that the export of the RD-93 for JF-17 exports has been categorically denied yet.

[Awesome]

Leadership: China Eats Russia Alive

June 14, 2010: After years of having their military technology blatantly stolen by China, Russia is no longer selling them much of anything. In addition, the state controlled Russian media is now featuring lots of pundits deploring the low performance of the Chinese arms industry, and how poorly they have copied Russian military technology. A recent flurry of reports disparaged Chinese attempts to copy the Russian Su-33 (an aircraft carrier version of the Su-27). This all rings hollow when you consider how the Chinese have already caught up with a lot of Russian military manufacturers, and are driving them out of business in some areas.
For example, using stolen Russian technology, China is driving Russiaout of the low-end weapons business. In turn, Russian attempts to maintain their status as a major developer of military technology are fumbling, largely because of the sales stolen by China. Increasingly, China is undercutting Russian sales efforts with similar weapons containing lots of stolen Russian technology. The Chinese won't invest as much in developing new technology, and the Russians can no longer afford to. So the second tier weapons markets slide further into mediocrity.

Through most (1960s-80s) of the Cold War, Russia (Soviet Union) had a well financed arms industry. Many innovative weapons were developed, but all this effort was hobbled by the fact that the Russian economy as a whole was very inefficient, and Russian industry could not build high tech as well, or reliably, as Western firms. Thus Russian high-tech gear always came in second to Western counterparts.

When the Cold War ended, so did the lavish spending on the Russian defense industries. Many, actually over half, of these weapons manufacturers went bankrupt, or converted to non-military production. Those that survived, did so by exporting weapons. Throughout the 1990s, the Russian armed forces could not afford to buy much new stuff. China came to the rescue in the 1990s, and over the next decade, bought nearly $20 billion in Russian arms. But China also began to blatantly copy lots of the Russian tech, and build their own. Thus, not surprisingly, for the last five years, Chinese orders have shrunk, while production of copies of Russian tech have increased. In some cases, Russia has simply refused to sell China high tech stuff, to avoid having it copied.

In the 1990s, Chinese manufacturing capabilities were so far behind that Russia believed their lead would never disappear. But with Russian military manufacturing largely stalled for the last two decades, and the Chinese economy booming (over 10 percent growth per year), the Russians are horrified to realize that the Chinese are catching up, and fast. For example, China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five (or so) years. Currently, China imports two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-27/30, J-11, J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29s RD-33) for the JF-17 (a F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan.) But in the meantime, Chinese engineers have managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS13, to replace the RD-93.

China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and construction skills. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades.

It is true, as the Russians like to point out, that the Chinese have taken a long time to develop some of their latest high-tech weapons (like the J-10 and JF-17 jet fighters, jet engines and many missile and electronic systems). But that's because the Chinese regarded these projects as learning exercises, and have not produced the resulting aircraft in large numbers. The Chinese use what they have learned for the next project, and they have made a lot of progress in two decades. China has already demonstrated an ability to build (and copy) world class technology. They now have the largest automobile industry on the planet. China can build things, and build them well. They learn from their mistakes, and they are surpassing their long time Russian mentors. The Russians know this is true, but they don't want to admit it.

[Luftwaffe]

pointless discussion and lets after this get back to the thread subject. Neither am I angry nor upset, quite glad about Chinese engine that makes me even more happy to have a full package sooner. "They russian lost terribly". So you accept? russian blundered and paid huge price that broke them into pieces. they can keep good relations with break away states but bitter past haunts them and blames Pakistan for that to bad.
Last part Agnostic Muslim already answered and you don't run in circles.
here again:The estimated per-unit production price of the JF-17 has been known for years, so that is hardly a good excuse.

[satishkumarcsc]

Yes, but Pogosyan has only written about its concerns, there is no word on whether those concerns have actually changed the Russian position on exporting the RD-93.

In fact even these 'concerns' leave wiggle room for continued export:



I don't believe (based on information available so far) that the export of the RD-93 for JF-17 exports has been categorically denied yet.

Thats what I have been arguing all this time. Event if the Russians stop Pakistan dosent have a problem with it. And it is only conveyance of mistrust of the UAC over Chinese defence corporations to the government. It is not yet decided as of yet completely. The ball is in Russian government's court and they have the final say.

And since the Soviet days the Russians have never given what they actually use. It has always been a downgraded product till the Su 30 deals.

[mahmoodadeel]

Great decision from russia ...... at least we are safe from those crap engines now .... WS13 will be ready for induction next year.

[SpArK]

Great decision from russia ...... at least we are safe from those crap engines now .... WS13 will be ready for induction next year.

The first batch of JF-17s are going to fly with these engines. now think again.

[araz]

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[QUOTE=Asim Aquil;980592]Leadership: China Eats Russia Alive

Thanks for posting this informative piece of info. It is a true picture of chinese progress inspite of adversity and sanctions. I think we need to learn a lot from our friends and follow thier work ethos in every aspect of our life.If we can be half as disciplined as the chinese, the sky is the limit for us.
Araz