Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak fighter jets

[theboss]

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The sale of engines was perosnally authorized by putin even after immense indian lobbying. The next batch will carry WS13 chinese origin engines which will also be used in export variant as the Russian are not happy about their components falling into their direct competitor market. Also there are talk about integrating western engines most probably from GE since Pakistan already maintains F-16 it will be easier for them to continue on common origin platforms.

As far chinese manufacturing capabilities, it has the largest high-tech and precision electronics fabrication facilities, something which soviets todays russian lack a lot. Large part of chinese copying comes from electronic fabrication contract outsourced to them by Russia. The chinese have built their defense industry over consumer electronics and dual use items to bypass sanctions. For example, Chinese missle system sold to Iraq which used a Company PC system as C&C console.

The real sphere where Chinese serious lack behind is composite materials, nanotechnology and their manufacturing however with chinese students making largest talent pool in western universities this is likely to catch up fast.

[fatman17]

here is the reality.....we know our indians friends are very happy this has happened.

the fact is 150 RD-93 engines are already in China to be installed on Pakistan's JF-17s. for this 'transfer', Russia now cannot do anything as the contract has been executed.

what Russia has done is to 'stop sale' on future RD-93 engines fitted on the FC-1 (and not JF-17) for re-export to potential customers other than Pakistan. this has been done because Russia sees Chinese exports of 'cheaper' but dependable defence products as a threat to their export plans to countries in the middle-east and africa.

[araz]

Thats what I have been arguing all this time. Event if the Russians stop Pakistan dosent have a problem with it. And it is only conveyance of mistrust of the UAC over Chinese defence corporations to the government. It is not yet decided as of yet completely. The ball is in Russian government's court and they have the final say.

And since the Soviet days the Russians have never given what they actually use. It has always been a downgraded product till the Su 30 deals.

Agreed but the crux of the matter is the timing of the news. From stopping pakistan point of view, it seems a poorly timed step and therefore totally illogical. Its only possible repurcussions could be to please India and therefore support and promote sales of the MRCA, or against China. Even from the latter point of view, it seems futile as it seems from the news that WS13 will be ready in 2-3 yrs and China has enough engines in the mean while to keep thing moving positively. It may hinder Chinese induction of FC1, but I personally dont think that will happen in any case without WS13 being installed and ready and tested. So even from that point of view, the Russian position sound very weak. It will create a stir as PAF is demonstrating Thunder at Farnborough, and from that point of view as well, it seems to have a very weak logical standing. Russia stand to lose more than it gains , as any loss of revenue to thunder means less of engines sold, and Russia does not have a competing plane in that class in any case, so why shoot oneself in ones foot??
Araz

[mjnaushad]

here is the reality.....we know our indians friends are very happy this has happened.

the fact is 150 RD-93 engines are already in China to be installed on Pakistan's JF-17s. for this 'transfer', Russia now cannot do anything as the contract has been executed.

what Russia has done is to 'stop sale' on future RD-93 engines fitted on the FC-1 (and not JF-17) for re-export to potential customers other than Pakistan. this has been done because Russia sees Chinese exports of 'cheaper' but dependable defence products as a threat to their export plans to countries in the middle-east and africa.

And even going on the Fast track like 25 planes a year we can go for at least 4 years without any delay. Keeping 50 engines as reserve. They are too late i guess.

[fatman17]

^China has only 4% of the world's defence products market - it is estimated that in the next 10 years, it will have 16% of the world market - a huge leap forward for the chinese - therein lies Russia's problem!!!

[theboss]

^China has only 4% of the world's defence products market - it is estimated that in the next 10 years, it will have 16% of the world market - a huge leap forward for the chinese - therein lies Russia's problem!!!

The chinese are not intrested in depending on their defense exports because they are more of a peaceful kind. They may arm some friendly nations in Asia but building defense as an export oriented industry to export sophisicated arms is not their aim. This is demostrated in their industry that consumer goods make much large faction of GDP than defense goods. China wishes to be out of any future global conflict and has its own strategy of influence through peace. While the Russian and Americans are always lobbying in MENA for arms sales, Chinese are quietly busy extracting minerals, petroleum, building infrastructure, railways, telecom etc etc.

[a1b2c145]

Is PLAAF really buying FC-1. ? Didn't they rejected FC-1



Which own made avionics are you talking about.?

Please elaborate

Let me tell you why ------
PLAAF will buy FC-1 until the engine of WS-13 is ready because China has J-8, FBC to instead FC-1 temporarily while Pakistan don't
The good news is that ::::::2010 March 18th, The edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.
WS-13 has 10% greater thrust than RD-93
Guizhou WS-13 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dash]

I beg to differ Sir

I hear this from my fellow Indian members and friends in Pakistan that we need learn from US, we need to learn from China.

What I ask myself is why do I need to lean from others, Who did the west learn from, who the Chineese learn from.
This is as simple as saying learning is an art of competing with yourself and overcoming your own disabilities. If you want to learn discipline from China then we are are at a wrong path here as discipline is something which cant be taught.

You can formulate your policies based on your own principles, values and culture. Chinese are taught in a way that makes them disciplned, but same system is not in India, neither in pakistan or West.

We need to look at our own culture and just see a most feasible way for us.

^China has only 4% of the world's defence products market - it is estimated that in the next 10 years, it will have 16% of the world market - a huge leap forward for the chinese - therein lies Russia's problem!!!

I beg to disagree Sir -

the Chinese are yet to tap any major market in arms deal. All their product are under priced. going by the % value it might still be a 17% but if compared vica vis west or even Russian the profitability amount will still be less.

the only buyers will be limted to African countries and however there is a factor that it will face competition from Indian inductries as well.

[DANGER-ZONE]

NO WORRIES PEOPLE,we already have 150 RD-93. More engines were set to purchased for Export versions. New block of Jf-17 will surly have ws-13 which has greater Thrust then RD-93.

[Frankenstein]

NO WORRIES PEOPLE,we already have 150 RD-93. More engines were set to purchased for Export versions. New block of Jf-17 will surly have ws-13 which has greater Thrust then RD-93.

Now there are more chances for Russians to lose there customers once WS-13 are installed

Apne paon pe khudi kuhari Mari ha

[satishkumarcsc]

Agreed but the crux of the matter is the timing of the news. From stopping pakistan point of view, it seems a poorly timed step and therefore totally illogical. Its only possible repurcussions could be to please India and therefore support and promote sales of the MRCA, or against China. Even from the latter point of view, it seems futile as it seems from the news that WS13 will be ready in 2-3 yrs and China has enough engines in the mean while to keep thing moving positively. It may hinder Chinese induction of FC1, but I personally dont think that will happen in any case without WS13 being installed and ready and tested. So even from that point of view, the Russian position sound very weak. It will create a stir as PAF is demonstrating Thunder at Farnborough, and from that point of view as well, it seems to have a very weak logical standing. Russia stand to lose more than it gains , as any loss of revenue to thunder means less of engines sold, and Russia does not have a competing plane in that class in any case, so why shoot oneself in ones foot??
Araz

Still Rd 93 is a proven engine when compared to the WS 13 which is still in its infancy stages. This gives the JF 17 a better sales pitch. This is what the Russians are using as an advantage. They want to sell more of the MiG 29s as fast as they can as they are moving towards fifth gen aircrafts.

WS 13 might have greater thrust than the RD 93 but it is not a proven platform like the RD series of engines as they have been used for decades. And the EAF order is the major sales pitch they are doing. The RD as you know has been used for decades and all the problems have been rectified.

This whole issue is still not finalized by the Russian government and the UAC chief has asked the government not to ship more RD 93s as it is interfering with the company's interests.

This is not about the sales to PAF or the induction in PLAAF. It is about exports. The WS 13 is not proven and the RD 93 is a proven platform and is reliable. This will give the JF a huge minus point when it comes to evaluation.

MRCA is not a big issue for the Russians because they know that we will still buy from them. you want a list of products still on order from Russia in the Indian side?

140 Su 30 MKI
50+ PAKFA
MiG 29 upgradation
Su 30 MKI upgradation
4 Krivak IV class frigates
40 MiG 29k
1000+ T90 tanks
1000+ Bhramos( co-development)
and a lot more...

So dont drag India into this. This is not about protection of India's interests, but about Russians protecting their own business interests.

[Guynextdoor]

India has been good customer of Russia, but they try to rip you guys off anyway by increasing costs - look at the Adm. Gorshkov.

N how many countries on this planet have helped their allies in building their own nuke subs and leased their best nuke subs to their allies?

[Frankenstein]

So dont drag India into this. This is not about protection of India's interests, but about Russians protecting their own business interests.

India drag themselves into this, they were Indians who were dancing with joy, when they first heard of Russians blocking the engines for JF-17s. Now that the status quo is changed, we are getting much better engines, so now you are saying dont drag India?? Smart

Every action have an equal and opposite reaction

[satishkumarcsc]

India drag themselves into this, they were Indians who were dancing with joy, when they first heard of Russians blocking the engines for JF-17s. Now that the status quo is changed, we are getting much better engines, so now you are saying dont drag India?? Smart

Every action have an equal and opposite reaction

India never dragged itself into this. Is there any official comment on this from the Indian government? And you are getting an engine called RD 93...the WS 13 will come to you only after all the tests are finished and the engine is certified which is a good 2-3 long years as it has just done it's taxi trials. Perhaps in your second or third batch.

A few over-zealous Indians have been ranting about it and no sane Indian has spoken any word against it. So is it you who is over reacting or me? Hell even the Russian government hasnt decided yet...who the hell are we to tell the RD 93 has already been blocked? It was Mr. Pyogosan, the chief of the UAC who has written to the government and is still awaiting the final answer and many people have already jumped into conclusions? All the UAC (not Russia yet) wants to do is protect it's business interests in the other markets.

Well I have moved away from the Newtonian past....And for me money and my interests counts.

[IceCold]

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Guys relax! what the hell are we arguing about? India did it or not does not matter because in the end Pakistan has enough rd-93 engines for its first batch of JF-17s and for the latter batches hopefully WS-13 will be fully ready as taxi trails have already been successfully completed.
So what is this fuss all about. Seriously guys we need to grow up.