Best BVR Capable Fighter in South Asia

[Storm Force]

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This is a Thread i found on a neutral website the other day and i was very keen to share with you all.

I have posted in this section only because it discusses both JF17 & F16 detection range versis the lastest indian fighters.

THE RESULTS ARE SURPRISING to me

" To the mods if they feel this belongs elsewhere please feel free to move"

See below

[Storm Force]

Which Fighter Plane is the No:1 in the Indian Subcontinent in the BVR(Beyond Visual Range) arena?


Official Specs says Zhuk-ME on board Mig-29K & Mig-29SMT upgrade has a detection range of 120km for a 5m2 target. Hence:
For 20m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 170km
For 15m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 158km
For 12.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 151km
For 10m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 143km
For 8.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 137km
For 3m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 106km
For 1m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 80km


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Official Specs says N-011M BARS onboard Su-30MKI has a detection range of 140km for a standard Russian RCS, in this case 5m2. Indian fan boys claim that some N-011m BARS radars variants have a high power output of 7kw(the original one has only 4-5kw), and hence a higher range than the 140km given above. The precise range for this version is not known. Whether this radar is inservice with the Indian Air force is also not known. And even if it is with the IAF, how many 7kw N-011M BARS radar equipped Su-30MKI there are is impossible to determine. Hence under these circumstances, only an official brochure can be taken into account. Official brochure, says ZHUK-MSFE with a 8kw power output, has a range of 180km for a 5m2 target. ZHUK-MSFE is the latest Russian radar, while BARS is several years older. Also BARS output is lesser than Zhuk-MSFE. Hence it's safe to assume 4-5kw BARS variant's(or even the 7kw range) range isn't going to be higher than ZHUK-MSFE.

140km detection range for 5m2 target. Hence:
For 8.5m2, BARS detection range is 160km
For 3m2, BARS detection range is 123km
For 1.5m2, BARS detection range is 104km
For 1m2, BARS detection range is 94km

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Official Specs says KLJ-7 onboard JF-17 has a detection range of 105km for a 5m2 target. However, PAF isn't too fond of his radar eventhough it has the same range as a APG-68(V)9 on F-16block52 & RDY-2 on Mirage-2000-5/-9(both radars according to official specs), & less range than RC-400 radar. Even in its most powerful form(meaning the version with the largest antennae, which the JF-17 cannot house due to its relatively small nose), the RC400 has 20% less range than the RDY radar. RC-400 is the radar which the PAF are planning to equip their second block of JF-17. Why they are dumping a better radar(according to official specs) and going for a lesser ranged one is fueling speculation that KLJ-7's true specs is lower than publicized. In any case, lets see what its ranges are:

105km detection range for 5m2 Target. Hence:
For 20m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 149km
For 15m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 138km
For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 132km
For 10m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 125km
For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 120km
For 3m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 92km
For 1m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 70km

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RCS figures are confidential. However unofficially there are some figures available on the internet. They are:

Clean(meaning payload/ammunition not loaded) F-16 after Block 30, which includes block 52 - 1.2m2
Clean Mig-29B & Mig-29SMT - 5m2
Clean Su-30MKI - 10m2 to 15m2

JF-17 without RAM, its RCS would be more than a Clean F-16 block 52 which has RAM & is planform. F-16 block25 & the previous variants, which are planform in construction but without RAM, were said to have an RCS of 3m2-5m2, when clean. JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article6.html

Su-30MKI's RCS when carrying full 8000kgs AG load is said to be 20m2.
India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter

Lets take Su-30MKI's clean RCS as 11.5m2, higher than a standard Su-27, due to canards & the extra seat.

Mig-29K's RCS is officially confirmed to be 4-5 times less than a old Mig-29, due to composites & RAM. So taking an average value between 4 & 5 = 4.5. When the unofficial RCS of 5 is divided by 4.5 we get an RCS of 1.11.
"Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."
- RAC MiG

JF-17 cannot carry larger payloads. Its load carrying capacity is only 7900lbs or less than 3600kgs. This compared to Su-30MKIs 8000kgs, Mig-29k's 5500kgs, & F-16's 7500kgs.
Empty weight of the aircraft is 14520lbs for JF-17, 19700lbs for F-16 Block 52, 25573 for Mig-29SMT, 28550lbs for Mig-29K & 40565lbs for Su-30MKI.

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Eventhough Mig-29 can carry less load than a F-16 or Su-30, lets consider a uniform RCS increase for comparison purposes.

Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29SMT as 8.5m2, 3.5m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29K as 5m2, 3.9m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded F-16 Block 52 as 5m2, 3.8m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded JF-17 as 5m2, 2.5m2 more.
Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Su-30MKI as 15m2, 3.5m2 more.

With these RCS values and the above radar ranges, you can now see which fighters will be detecting their opponent fighters first... and first tracking which almost linearly follows detection.

Mig-29K will detect:
Su-30MKI at 158km
Mig-29SMT at 137km
F-16 Block 52 at 120km
JF-17 at 120km

F-16 Block 52 will detect:
Su-30MKI at 138km
Mig-29SMT at 120km
JF-17 at 105km
Mig-29K at 105km

Su-30MKI will detect:
Mig-29SMT at 160km
F-16 Block 52 at 140km
JF-17 at 140km
Mig-29K at 140km

Mig-29SMT will detect:
Su-30MKI at 158km
F-16 Block 52 at 120km
JF-17 at 120km
Mig-29K at 120km

JF-17 will detect:
Su-30MKI at 138km
Mig-29SMT at 120km
F-16 Block52 at 105km
Mig-29K at 105km

Mig-29K comes out as the clear winner. If provided with a long range BVR weapon which could match its powerful radar, Mig-29K navalised version will come out as the BVR winner.
Su-30MKI follows the Mig-29K Naval Fulcrum.
Mig-29SMT, F-16 Block-52 & JF-17 are tied at third.

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References:


Zhuk-ME (Mig-29 Upgrade & Mig-29K)
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf

N-011 BARS (Su-30MKI)
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf
http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM PICTURES & DOCS/Overscan's guide to Russian Military Avionics.htm

Kopyo-21I
Can Track- 8 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 57 km
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf

Kopyo-M
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf
(Mig-21 Bison has Kopyo radar. Some bisons are equipped with Kopyo-21I and some with Kopyo-M.)

Grifo-S
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 93 km
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/f...ts/GRIFO_S.pdf

KLJ-7
Can Track- 10 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105 km
http://i30.tinypic.com/2r70vgw.jpg

BARS-29 (Same MKI radar but antennae adapted to Mig-29's smaller nose)
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/2...s29back2wp.jpg
http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/8...29front9zl.jpg

Irbis-E (Su-35BM)
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 400 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km
Irbis / Irbis-E
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
http://www.niip.ru/modules/Downloads...006/2006_5.pdf

APG-77 (F-22A)
Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 200 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

APG-81 (F-35)
Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 160 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

Captor-M (EF-2000)
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 185 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html

Zaslon-M (Mig-31)
Max Detection for 10 ~ 15 sqm RCS - 400 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html

RBE-2 (Rafale)
Can Track - 40 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Track for 3 sqm RCS - 100 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 130-140 km
Dassault Rafale Avionics

RDY-2 (mirage 2000-5/-9)
Can Track - 24 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

RC-400 (smaller radar based on RDY-2)
Can Track - 24 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 70 km

APG-68 (V)9 (on F-16 Block 52)
Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

APG-66(V)2 (on F-16 MLU)
Max Detection for 6 sqm RCS - 74 km
APG-66 Declassified

[Storm Force]

MIG29K

Then Mki F16/52 & Thunder

Strange no comprison with FC20 or upgraded mirage 2000-5 ????????

[Storm Force]

The author has tried to be fair and actually posted sources o his data.

MIG29K which is just started to jointhe Indian Navy is actually a multi role fighter.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE MASSIVE REDUCTION IN RCS and new ZHUK radar makes this the best BVR spec wise and not the su30mki or new F16 BLOCK 52s



Indian Navy MIG29K the most advancec Mig29s in indian service

[Urbanized Greyhound]

How do the Bisons figure in this analysis ? they are BVR capable and during the Red Flag exercises they happened to approach the F-16 's ( legacy fighters of the USAF ) quite closely due to their small RCS before they were detected .Armed with the Kopyo how do they match up against the JF 17 ?

[Storm Force]

Urban i can only show wat i found on the website

do not know aboy mig21 bison or F7 PG for that matter

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Urban i can only show wat i found on the website

do not know aboy mig21 bison or F7 PG for that matter

we have to wait again for the next Indo-U.S exercise then......thanks for your posts btw....they were quite informative.....

[ANTIBODY]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...-fighters.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...er-planes.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-mis...mmand-air.html

[ANTIBODY]

i dont see the writer taking into consideration , the awacs on both sides--

[Sliver]

i dont see the writer taking into consideration , the awacs on both sides--

why dont you take it in and do an analysis?

The thread did not say "all weapons to be used in the war" - in that case he should even consider the missiles, the a the intelligence, the code breakers...

the thread was solely to check for the radar performance w r t the radar signature of potential threat aircraft.

The analyst did a very good job and he backed it up with verifiable data too! good job!

[mikey]

Best in asia is only one and only one for years to come is invincible Su 30mki.. Nothing comes closer , just not because its an indian but specs tells you the whole story.

[XiNiX]

Good Analysis. But read carefully its the best fighter in BVR scenario...

[GodlessBastard]

Interesting analysis. I guess I've underestimated the advances that the MiG-29 naval version has made over the standard.

Speaking of which, are the MiG-29Ks multirole? I know the original MiG-29s are strictly air superiority, but I heard that might change due to Indian specifications for multirole naval aircraft. If MiG-29Ks are indeed mutirole, how do they compare to other multirole combat aircraft like the F-16?

[satishkumarcsc]

Best in asia is only one and only one for years to come is invincible Su 30mki.. Nothing comes closer , just not because its an indian but specs tells you the whole story.

You are forgetting the F 15s of Korea and Japan. They too are good enough.

[humanfirst]

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Isn't the bvr missile AIM 120C5 in f16 block 52 advanced than r77 In indian service?