Dedicated Electronic Warfare aircrafts in PAF

[maverick1977]

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Throwing some ideas out , kinda brain storming session to get a clearer picture.

Shouldnt pakistani airforce have dedicated ECM based aircrafts which can solely work on detecting any radar tracking and somehow minipulating those signals or jamming them...

here is what i can throw out based on my engineering background....

If PAF has dedicated platforms for electronic warfare per squardon, then these aircrafts can emmbed with their strike force towards enemy territory. Whenever a radar signal is encountered, then that aircraft can jam that signal. by jamming means, make the same signal as the emitting radar and causing interference as to make them blind? similiarly, can transmit, X band signals when incoming enemy missiles are homing and rendering that useless ?

you need dedicated aircrafts because of massive amount of electronic tracking in different bands... in that way you need pilot and a dedicated warfare officer in the second seat of the plane...

This electronic warfare acts as a shield for the strike force and make it easier to access heavily defenced enemy target..

beneficial against Limited strikes or surgical strikes without going all out war. And in conventional all out war, can protect its strike squardon against any surprises where AWACS dont see any threats during planning but help against rapidly changing battle scneario during strike missions...

[Chogy]

Very, very good observations. Electronic warfare is in a realm like stealth... secretive, and when done properly, frighteningly effective. In the early stages of Desert Storm, Iraqi air defenses and C & C were blinded by coordinated ECM from coalition aircraft.

ECM can include radar jamming and spoofing, comm jamming, weapons spoofing, and missiles like HARM which can render a radar-based AD network impotent.

The boxes which create such functions are highly classified, and are the results of two primary sources -

SIGINT, which is Signals Intelligence... gathered by spy aircraft, satellite, and ground based resources. They record the type of signal, the waveforms, everything about the signal

And once the SIGINT is gathered, talented engineers design countermeasures to them. It is the quality of the engineering that produces effective ECM as much as the necessary SIGINT.

When SAM sites are afraid to turn on their radars, when search radars are spoofed or blinded, the battle is 3/4 won. For Pakistan to develop native ECM capabilities, it needs to postulate which platform(s) might be considered "enemy" one day, and the signals need to be sampled and recorded. This can be very hazardous. During the cold war, a number of SIGINT aircraft were lost or shot down by both sides. And often an enemy will not cooperate, and save certain waveforms for war use only, rendering multi-million $$ ECM efforts useless.

ECCM: Counter to ECM. HAVE-QUICK is a good example. Very effective.

[Muradk]

Throwing some ideas out , kinda brain storming session to get a clearer picture.

Shouldnt pakistani airforce have dedicated ECM based aircrafts which can solely work on detecting any radar tracking and somehow minipulating those signals or jamming them...

here is what i can throw out based on my engineering background....

If PAF has dedicated platforms for electronic warfare per squardon, then these aircrafts can emmbed with their strike force towards enemy territory. Whenever a radar signal is encountered, then that aircraft can jam that signal. by jamming means, make the same signal as the emitting radar and causing interference as to make them blind? similiarly, can transmit, X band signals when incoming enemy missiles are homing and rendering that useless ?

you need dedicated aircrafts because of massive amount of electronic tracking in different bands... in that way you need pilot and a dedicated warfare officer in the second seat of the plane...

This electronic warfare acts as a shield for the strike force and make it easier to access heavily defenced enemy target..

beneficial against Limited strikes or surgical strikes without going all out war. And in conventional all out war, can protect its strike squardon against any surprises where AWACS dont see any threats during planning but help against rapidly changing battle scneario during strike missions...

What does 24 SQD do then. Anyone?

[ANTIBODY]

The Grumman (now Northrop Grumman) EA-6B Prowler is a unique national asset that can be deployed from land bases and aircraft carriers to monitor the electromagnetic spectrum and actively deny an adversary the use of radar and communications. The EA-6B is a unique, high-demand low-volume (HDLV) national asset that provides electronic attack for the Navy, Marines, and Air Force. The EA-6B Prowler was designed to complement the Navy's defenses in today's electronic warfare environment.

The EA-18G Growler is an electronic attack version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet and will replace existing EA-6B Prowlers completely within the next several years. Leading the sea change are the Sailors of Electronic Attack Squadrons (VAQ) 129 "Vikings" and 132 "Scorpions" out of Naval Air Station Whidbey Island, Wash. As the Fleet Replacement Squadron, the Vikings were the first ones to transition to the new platform.


EA-6 Prowler

Growler: an electronic attack warfare revolution | All Hands | Find Articles at BNET


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Electronic warfare (EW) refers to any action involving the use of the electromagnetic spectrum or directed energy to control the spectrum, attack an enemy, or impede enemy assaults via the spectrum. The purpose of electronic warfare is to deny the opponent the advantage of, and ensure friendly unimpeded access to, the EM spectrum. EW can be applied from air, sea, land, and space by manned and unmanned systems, and can target communication, radar, or other services.[1] EW includes three major subdivisions: Electronic Attack (EA), Electronic Protection (EP), and Electronic warfare Support (ES).
Electronic warfare (EW) is the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its effective use by an adversary.
Electronic warfare has three main components:

• Electronic Attack (EA)
This is the active or passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to deny its use by an adversary.
An older term for EA is electronic countermeasures (ECM).
Active EA includes such activities as jamming, deception, active cancellation and EMP use.
Passive EA includes such activities as the use of chaff, towed decoys, balloons, radar reflectors, propelled and unpropelled winged decoys and stealth.
Many modern EA techniques are considered to be highly classified.


• Electronic Protection (EP)
This includes all activities related to making enemy EA activities less successful by means of protecting friendly personnel, facilities, equipment or objectives. EP can also be implemented to prevent friendly forces from being affected by their own EA.
Older terms for EP are electronic protective measures (EPM) and electronic counter countermeasures (ECCM).
Active EP includes such activities as technical modifications to radio equipment (such as frequency-hopping spread spectrum).
Passive EP includes such activities as education of operators (enforcing strict discipline) and modified battlefield tactics or operations.


• Electronic Support (ES)
This is the passive use of the electromagnetic spectrum to gain intelligence about other parties on the battlefield in order to find, identify, locate and intercept potential threats or targets.
An older term for ES is electronic support measures (ESM).
This intelligence might be used directly as fire missions for artillery or air strike orders, for mobilization of friendly forces to a specific location or objective on the battlefield or as the basis of EA/EP actions.
EA operations can be detected by an adversary due to their active transmissions. ES, however, can be conducted without the enemy ever knowing it. Its counterpart, SIGINT, is continuously performed by most of the world's countries in order to gain intelligence derived from other parties' electronic equipment and tactics.





Electronic signals intelligence (ELINT) refers to intelligence-gathering by use of electronic sensors. Its primary focus lies on non-communications signals intelligence. The Joint Chiefs of Staff define it as "Technical and geolocation intelligence derived from foreign noncommunications electromagnetic radiations emanating from other than nuclear detonations or radioactive sources."[2]

Signal identification is performed by analyzing the collected parameters of a specific signal, and either matching it to known criteria, or recording it as a possible new emitter. ELINT data are usually highly classified, and are protected as such.
The data gathered are typically pertinent to the electronics of an opponent's defense network, especially the electronic parts such as radars, surface-to-air missile systems, aircraft, etc. ELINT can be used to detect ships and aircraft by their radar and other electromagnetic radiation; commanders have to make choices between not using radar (EMCON), intermittently using it, or using it and expecting to avoid defenses. ELINT can be collected from ground stations near the opponent's territory, ships off their coast, aircraft near or in their airspace, or by satellite.


Electronic countermeasures (ECM) are a subsection of electronic warfare which includes any sort of electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively or defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly. It is used effectively to protect aircraft from guided missiles. Most air forces use ECM to protect their aircraft from attack. It has also been deployed by military ships and recently on some advanced tanks to fool laser/IR guided missiles. It is frequently coupled with stealth advances so that the ECM systems have an easier job. Offensive ECM often takes the form of jamming. Defensive ECM includes using blip enhancement and jamming of missile terminal homers.

[Oscar]

as pointed out..
The job of 24 sqd..aptly called the Blinders is Electronic warfare.
currently composed of two Falcon 20 jets configured for ELINT and ECM..
they are usually tasked with missions close to the border in peacetime...collecting info on the Indian ADGE.. and in wartime..may escort our jets on missions against electronic jamming.

Now here's the thing..
a two airframe sq is a little weird for me..
And ..so I think it should be that.. the erieyes..or the MC-12W's should join this sq..and turn it into a composite AEW&electronic warfare sq..where the erieye can complement the falcons in their role.

[Muradk]

as pointed out..
The job of 24 sqd..aptly called the Blinders is Electronic warfare.
currently composed of two Falcon 20 jets configured for ELINT and ECM..
they are usually tasked with missions close to the border in peacetime...collecting info on the Indian ADGE.. and in wartime..may escort our jets on missions against electronic jamming.

Now here's the thing..
a two airframe sq is a little weird for me..
And ..so I think it should be that.. the erieyes..or the MC-12W's should join this sq..and turn it into a composite AEW&electronic warfare sq..where the erieye can complement the falcons in their role.

Thank you
4 planes now by end of 2012 6 with upgrades.

[maverick1977]

Thanks Chogy for your input.


@Muradk, Santro,

2 Plane Squardon is hell not going to be enough in this modern age of electronic warfare. And these planes are only collecting data during peace time, they dont have any aggressive posture during wartime and hence, useless.

The question also comes up, how is this data evaluated from these planes? Is pakistan making any warefare equipment based on data collected? if yes then what is PAF agressive doctrine ? Do we have planes like mirages, F16s and F7s with ECCM pods ?

Suggestion and input needed,

1 Dedicated squardon for SIGINT and ELINT collection and one dedicated squardon for Aggressive ECCM during wartime ...

Is it that, for every

[Donatello]

Thanks Chogy for your input.


@Muradk, Santro,

2 Plane Squardon is hell not going to be enough in this modern age of electronic warfare. And these planes are only collecting data during peace time, they dont have any aggressive posture during wartime and hence, useless.

The question also comes up, how is this data evaluated from these planes? Is pakistan making any warefare equipment based on data collected? if yes then what is PAF agressive doctrine ? Do we have planes like mirages, F16s and F7s with ECCM pods ?

Suggestion and input needed,

1 Dedicated squardon for SIGINT and ELINT collection and one dedicated squardon for Aggressive ECCM during wartime ...

Is it that, for every

PAF has Mirage III as RP in recon, but i don't know for sure if they can carry pods.

The new JF-17s being more digitally adept, will be carrying pods, so will the J-10s be.

That would make 70% of the fleet electronic war capable. F-16s are the ones that might be left out.


But if you are talking about dedicated fighters like F/A18 growler, then PAF might convert some JF-17s into dedicated SEAD/AWACs config.

[maverick1977]

@penumbra,

i agree, PAF needs to have dedicated squardons of ECCM platforms just like Growlers for strike SEAD missions. Indians radar coverage are in from of 300kms all the way to 1500kms in 2011. to get deep into enemy territory where mobile radars will have unique contiunous battle changing role, along with static radars; PAF need to have deep strike aircrafts like J10B or minumum of JF17 to be in ECCM role along with strike package. Otherwise, missions will be close to failure or when successful, might have high iteration rates which might cause PAF to re-evaluate its deep strike mission based on its smaller size...

This should be a area of concentration for PAF for modern warfare to keep their losses low and also with huge element of surprise for enemies. In long sustained conventional war, this is a game changer and will prevent Pakistan from going nuclear and hence, the out come of battle can change significantly....

[Aeronaut]

What about JF-17s equipped with KG-300G Jamming pod as well as a full custom built EW suite like Growler.

The advantage of having a fighter jet is that it can go faster and can change location where needed quite quickly. It can operate under protection of other AC's where AWACS cannot in the enemy territory -

[Donatello]

What about JF-17s equipped with KG-300G Jamming pod as well as a full custom built EW suite like Growler.

The advantage of having a fighter jet is that it can go faster and can change location where needed quite quickly. It can operate under protection of other AC's where AWACS cannot in the enemy territory -

A fighter is not only quicker but cheaper.

We don't want to put 100million $ or so AWACs in the center of the battle.

[FSLN]

What about JF-17s equipped with KG-300G Jamming pod

you Just don't put a Jamming pod on an aircraft and call it a EW dedicated war plane..

if the Jamming pod and the aircraft radar are not synchronized like a Swiss watch the Jamming pod will interfere with the JF-17 own radar...

[UmairP]

JF-17 would be good and cheap platform for EW. More importantly we can have a good number of these aircraft. Which also mean that these EW aircraft can pose as simple fighters and therefore another surprise.

[notorious_eagle]

PAF has Mirage III as RP in recon, but i don't know for sure if they can carry pods.

The new JF-17s being more digitally adept, will be carrying pods, so will the J-10s be.

That would make 70% of the fleet electronic war capable. F-16s are the ones that might be left out.


But if you are talking about dedicated fighters like F/A18 growler, then PAF might convert some JF-17s into dedicated SEAD/AWACs config.

Not really, the F16's Block 52 are our most potent aircrafts when it comes to Electronic Warfare. ALQ 211(V9) Pods that are installed on our F16's are the most advanced AIDEWS pods that the Americans can offer, i would argue that they are more advanced than anything in Indian inventory right now.

Strike Package is the name of the game today, even if one F16 is escorting the package than you have an excellent cover in terms of EW. The Rose Upgraded Mirages have quite decent self protection jamming pods and can definitely get the job done. The JF17 in its current form has excellent EW capabilities, a self protection jamming pod and KG300 for offensive jamming. PAF is going for 2 seater JF17's specifically for the purpose of Electronic Warfare, besides that we will have 8 AWACs in our inventory which have excellent jamming capabilities. Its quite clear that PAF will take a huge leap when it comes to Electronic Warfare in the next 5 years.

[fatman17]

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which a/c in PAF inventory will use the MAR-1 and the AGM-88 HARM in our inventory?