PAF and the JXX Fifth Gen Fighter

[Storm Force]

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In Reply to the Poster who said fgfa won,t enter IAF until 2025-2030 PLZ SEE LINK BELOW

Russian-Indian second prototype T-50 fighter to fly in 2011 | Russia | RIA Novosti

Early 2011 for second plane

And IOC 2020 which is 9 years away. Nine years is a lot of TESTING development time for an already flying plane

[Qasibr]

Looking at the way Russia inducted MiG-29s and SU-27s, there were considerable problems, it would be a long long story full of tales of downgrading radar requirements etc(later on, the MiG-31 with it's ~50 ton weight would carry a radar with the sort of specs the soviets wanted on the SU). Arguably, the 5th Gen jump is even bigger for Russia, mainly due to their avionics.

The US used to focus on independent components that came together in an aircraft, whereas the Russians tended to just focus on the end-product. Even in the 80's, the Pakistanis got customized F-16s. Russia is coming around, they're clearly focusing on avionics more, but they still have alot of problems - the T-50 does not have a proper engine, the SU-27 engine it flies with is not stealthy at all.

Time will tell whether the project gets delayed, logically, it seems very likely. Personally, I don't buy into this whole 5th gen bit. 5th gen aircraft are *not* immensely superior to 4th gen, the only major benefit 5th gen provides is reduced radar signature, and that only at the cost of severely compromising the aircraft's payload capacity(unless you go the T-50 route and build a gigantic aircraft which would naturally tend to have a bigger radar cross-section).

Other than the stealth(and the significantly reduced payload), all the avionics are already available in 4.5th gen aircraft, same generation AESA radars get installed, all these things can and are available in modern 4.5th gen aircraft. Smaller aircraft, even outdated ones like the MiG-21 "flying coffins" were hard to detect for the F-22, even though the -21 couldn't compete because it'd get shot when it got detected, and it's weaponry suite wouldn't be too modern.

So - I think PAF's decision remains justified. Focusing on getting modern avionics on our 4.5th gen fleet would enable it to compete perfectly in the short run, especially given that lately we're looking to acquire modern SAMs. In a defensive war like we're likely to have in any wartime scenario(India always crosses the international border, we never have), we'd do fairly well.

[rockstar]

^^

Though your points are valid, 5th Gen v.s other lower generations have a huge gap, even if the only difference is stealth. It has been established in the war games already.

[Rafi]

PAF and Pakistani Armed Forces are very adept in "catching" up with technological innovations. We have proved it with AWAC's, Nukes etc.

No doubt the brass, have their eye on developments and when the time comes, a equalizer to any development will materialise.

[jagjitnatt]

Looking at the way Russia inducted MiG-29s and SU-27s, there were considerable problems, it would be a long long story full of tales of downgrading radar requirements etc(later on, the MiG-31 with it's ~50 ton weight would carry a radar with the sort of specs the soviets wanted on the SU). Arguably, the 5th Gen jump is even bigger for Russia, mainly due to their avionics.

Even with the problems those aircraft were inducted within 6 years of their first flight, and lets not say 5th gen is very tough and etc etc, because when Mig 29s and Su27s were being developed, then 4th gen technology was difficult to achieve. Technology has evolved, so its easier to make a 4th gen now, but back in the day it was just like developing a 5th gen right now.

So using that 6 years scale, I can say that PAKFA would be inducted by 2016 in Russia, and 2017 in India, just like what Sukhoi engineers are predicting.

[jagjitnatt]

PAF and Pakistani Armed Forces are very adept in "catching" up with technological innovations. We have proved it with AWAC's, Nukes etc.

No doubt the brass, have their eye on developments and when the time comes, a equalizer to any development will materialise.

I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.

Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.

[Rafi]

I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.

Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.

Nobody would argue with peace with sovereign equality, it is not really becoming tougher, remember our procurements are subsidised to a large extent by billions of dollars worth of weapons and training from the US and China.

In fact for every dollar we spend - we get at least 2 in assistance from our allies.

[farhan_9909]

I am sure, sooner or later PAF will get something to counter PAKFA, but with every passing year, its getting tougher and tougher. The difference between the IAF and PAF is growing bigger, and the price Pakistan has to pay for catching seems to be getting higher.

Pakistan needs to find another way to end this, because it can not afford to get into an arms race. Negotiating peace is the best way.

MMS said no talk first stop terrorism.
So we want talk bt nt your MMS.

And dnt worry as our Economy grows let say after 2012.it achieves 6% growth and WOT finishes we will spend almost our budget in military instead of operation then we can buy or join any 5th generation fighter.

and also check out my signature for more info

[Storm Force]

To Farhan i think the thread has concluded that China does not want to Share the Fifth Gen JXX project.

Are you referring to some other country ???

As for QASBIR.. Suggesting he does not buy into this 5th gen fighter business. I would do some research into the KILL Ratios of 5th gen fighters over 4 gen fighters first. in computer sims and mock combat.

If you stand stil "you get left behind" IN LIFE

[Rafi]

To Farhan i think the thread has concluded that China does not want to Share the Fifth Gen JXX project.

Are you referring to some other country ???

As for QASBIR.. Suggesting he does not buy into this 5th gen fighter business. I would do some research into the KILL Ratios of 5th gen fighters over 4 gen fighters first. in computer sims and mock combat.

If you stand stil "you get left behind" IN LIFE

And I can assure you we will get a 5th Generation Aircraft - and it will be as advanced as your Russian purchase.

[Storm Force]

Easy to Say Rafi "we will get 5th gen fighter"

I too believe PAF will HAVE NO CHOICE but to get JXX when china produces this and more importantly is willing to part with the technology..

[Rafi]

Easy to Say Rafi "we will get 5th gen fighter"

I too believe PAF will HAVE NO CHOICE but to get JXX when china produces this and more importantly is willing to part with the technology..

Cut the arrogance storm force, we may even purchase the F35 or other systems. And the Russians may hold back some of the more sensitive technology, so your plane will be "down graded" version of their plane.

And what ever tech india buys we have always been able to get systems that neutralized it's effectiveness.

[Storm Force]

Rafi No arrogance just realism.

If F35 ever comes to South Asia my money is on India getting it first. Infact Lockheed Martin have suggested it makes sense for india to buy both F16IN & JSF from 2020.

But the problem is the cost £130m each. PAF can buy 10 JF17 s for that much money or 4 FC20s. Very expensive war planes the F35

As for watered down russian technology.

I suggest you read about the SU30MKI THE most advanced FLANKER IN THE WORLD with israeli and French Systems. and TVC engines.

I BELIEVE India will take the Russian design of the PAK FA but it will improved and infused with western technology. and weapons... just like the mki.

[Usama86]

I cannot understand why people want PAF to be a part of the Jxx project. The basic fact is that we have no idea about this technology and cannot assist the chines in any way, this is something which has been said my the PAF officials in the Zuhai air show as well. So the best thing to do is let China develop this thing using its resources and we can later buy it ofcourse.

[Indian-Devil]

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Cut the arrogance storm force, we may even purchase the F35 or other systems. And the Russians may hold back some of the more sensitive technology, so your plane will be "down graded" version of their plane.

And what ever tech india buys we have always been able to get systems that neutralized it's effectiveness.

Rafi, There is a big queue for F-35, who has invested in this program and price tag is also quiet high. If PAF/Govt of Pakistan can manage this price tag then do you think US will offer same varient of F-35 which they are using or which is used by those countries which invested a lot in this program. That will not be a "down graded" version?

There are couple of more factors which will not allow even PAF to buy it, but i donot wana put them here, as most of us understand them.

Will they be able to maintain such an costly AC, although PAF manage to get it from US.
Think on these topics before putting ur wish list.

As long as you think you guys can neutralize what system India buys, its ur thinking and belief , I donot wana comment on it. But atleast i donot think thats the case in real.