Pakistan Army Information

[Xeric]

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But what the inter-services 'mis coordination" has to do with inter-arm rivalry?
It would if negative add to the degree of miscoordination. If this affects asset allocation or purchasing decisions.

If you talk about the differences between foot infantry and mechanized infantry then probably you have forgotten about the petty differences between infantry and amour, artillery and infantry, aviation and all the remaining arms.

You don't call these 'things' as 'problems' these are minor issues as you and i have with our brothers and friends or the marketing branch have issue with the admin in some private corporation.

So don't worry about these. These things are healthy and serve as a catalyst for fruitful competitions.
These are healty so long as it is just as you describe.
Once it goes to the depth of asset purchasing and allocation it will be detremental. Much depends of the higer HQ's decision making and planning, that also deals with their individual pesonnal bent, arms wise.

Yes you are absolutely right as far as the purchasing thing is concerned, but with the kind of glass house we live in, we can't afford and let these kid of 'detrimental mistakes' to happen as it can put the very purpose of the armed forces at stake.

What ever the case may be, atleast we are together when the mission is same.

Leaving an arm or service behind in terms of equipment and training just because that i am jealous of someones uniform is not what we have done.

[wave69]

There is nothing wrong having a healthy rivalry within the army. Given the amount of small resources alocated, I guess both armor and infantry likes to have bigger share.My assement is that PA can not afford to go mechized in a big way.. its extremy expensive to do that !! Pakistan is already bleeding financially given the un annouced ARMS RACE we have with India...They need to get few clues from the Brits and the French, as to how maintain the oara of milatary might !!!!!!

[fatman17]

There is nothing wrong having a healthy rivalry within the army. Given the amount of small resources alocated, I guess both armor and infantry likes to have bigger share.My assement is that PA can not afford to go mechized in a big way.. its extremy expensive to do that !! Pakistan is already bleeding financially given the un annouced ARMS RACE we have with India...They need to get few clues from the Brits and the French, as to how maintain the oara of milatary might !!!!!!

i beg to differ - there are strong indications that the army may be raising a third armoured division and if one reads the info-thread carefully, it clearly indicates that the army is giving top priority to mechanization. thus the major share of army budget is being spent on the local manufacture of tanks, APCs/IFVs, MRLs etc.

[Ratus Ratus]

i beg to differ - there are strong indications that the army may be raising a third armoured division and if one reads the info-thread carefully, it clearly indicates that the army is giving top priority to mechanization. thus the major share of army budget is being spent on the local manufacture of tanks, APCs/IFVs, MRLs etc.

Interesting issue.
An additional armoured div would develop a disadvantage for COIN type Ops. Hence my past question about wheels.
In some situations a motorised div may be a more flexible structure able to be utilised in both conventional and unconventional warfare.

Again it will depend on how the PA, FC and Rangers intend collectively to deal with the problems in the border regions. Here I would see a need for flexibility of delivery of troops and in some ways mech is not the answer. Rotor is one option but is there enough to provide the necessary delivery of troops and fire power coverage.

I wonder if it is not time to start thinking outside the box so to speak.

[fatman17]

Interesting issue.
An additional armoured div would develop a disadvantage for COIN type Ops. Hence my past question about wheels.
In some situations a motorised div may be a more flexible structure able to be utilised in both conventional and unconventional warfare.

Again it will depend on how the PA, FC and Rangers intend collectively to deal with the problems in the border regions. Here I would see a need for flexibility of delivery of troops and in some ways mech is not the answer. Rotor is one option but is there enough to provide the necessary delivery of troops and fire power coverage.

I wonder if it is not time to start thinking outside the box so to speak.

this is in context of the requirements on the eastern border. for the western border, i would tend to agree with your assessment - the development and capability for CI ops is rudimentry at best (excluding the SFs) within the army which definately requires a out-of-the-box thinking esp for regular army formations dedicated for CI. maybe upto corps strength!

[S-2]

"Here I would see a need for flexibility of delivery of troops and in some ways mech is not the answer."

And in other ways it is, thus the need "...for flexibility of delivery...". Rotor? I'd happily surrender our Huey UH-1 fleet in mass if they'll pay for the upgrades, conditioning and transportation. One freighter can carry a crapload of UH-1s. Same with our AH-1F Cobras. Take em'- all you can sustain. Take em' staged out as you develop capacity if you want. Here they are.

Still, you'll appreciate a nicely balanced mech brigade scattered through a division's operating area. When you need to punch through to relieve a COP...well, you need to PUNCH through. That's all there is to it. Nothing else will do and having forces trained and prepared to roll on such contingencies is good- especially if you know you've little choice but to likely face IEDs along your route.

Good for getting offroad and busting trail too. Can't do that on wheels and it seems the valley floors are brushy and vegetated.

Pakistan possesses the force mix now to luxuriate. Frankly, nowhere in Pakistan is too far to redeploy temporarily up to FATA so the full range of forces now would be available I'd think.

There's no lacking combinations of capability- short an air assault division or two.. That'd be nice.

[Xeric]

Interesting issue.
An additional armoured div would develop a disadvantage for COIN type Ops. Hence my past question about wheels.
In some situations a motorised div may be a more flexible structure able to be utilised in both conventional and unconventional warfare.

Again it will depend on how the PA, FC and Rangers intend collectively to deal with the problems in the border regions. Here I would see a need for flexibility of delivery of troops and in some ways mech is not the answer. Rotor is one option but is there enough to provide the necessary delivery of troops and fire power coverage.

I wonder if it is not time to start thinking outside the box so to speak.

You are mixing LIC/Internal Security with a conventional war.

Moreover, we dont use helis to transport troops from one theater to another under 'normal' conditions.

[S-2]

"You are mixing LIC/Internal Security with a conventional war."

Don't delude yourself. Before your platoons can walk the streets and do the nitty-gritty of COIN ops, you'll need some (perhaps many) cases of forcible entry.

Bajaur is testimony of what may await you in spades in the Waziristans. If so, that's a mid-intensity conflict by most measures. These are areas that show evidence of long preparation for defense. That suggests both the means and the determination to defend. They also might believe that they can do so. The more this is believed, the more they'll be committed to such.

Just now, based on SWAT and Bajaur, I'd speculate that they'd not be opposed to a show-down of sorts in FATAland.

Be ready for a first class fight. Nothing to date suggests otherwise.

[S-2]

No big lecture but these forces can and do play a decisive role in many COIN-related scenarios. Conditions on the ground vary by day. That entails a flexible operational set wherever it's feasible.

For the most part, Pakistan has the basic mix of forces now to begin implementing successful operations, IMHO.

[Xeric]

"You are mixing LIC/Internal Security with a conventional war."

Don't delude yourself. Before your platoons can walk the streets and do the nitty-gritty of COIN ops, you'll need some (perhaps many) cases of forcible entry.

Bajaur is testimony of what may await you in spades in the Waziristans. If so, that's a mid-intensity conflict by most measures. These are areas that show evidence of long preparation for defense. That suggests both the means and the determination to defend. They also might believe that they can do so. The more this is believed, the more they'll be committed to such.

Just now, based on SWAT and Bajaur, I'd speculate that they'd not be opposed to a show-down of sorts in FATAland.

Be ready for a first class fight. Nothing to date suggests otherwise.

Hey that's what i m trying to say.
Sine when you have started mixing Special Ops, Room clearance ops, Fighting in Built up areas, Anti-Terrorist Ops with the CONVENTIONAL Attack/Defence operations.

Oh yes i forgot you are from the great US military(no sarcsim please) and you don't use infantry and armor as we do in the sub-continent.

When i say conventional operations in the indo-Pak context i mean operations like Attack, Defence, infiltration and Heli-borne operations (landing spec forces forces behind the enemy lines)

If you thing in Bajaur and Swat something conventional is happening, you need to be corrected.

Atleast we consider LIC/MIC different from a Conventional WAR, especially when it comes to india.

i hope i m able to make you understand.

[S-2]

"If you thing in Bajaur and Swat something conventional is happening, you need to be corrected.

Atleast we consider LIC/MIC different from a Conventional WAR, especially when it comes to india.

i hope i m able to make you understand."

Thanks for the effort but you're not. Here's why.

The overarching objective in FATA will be conceptualizd as COIN. COIN operations, though, are premised on entry fees. In some areas, you will flat have to kick the door in to even introduce yourselves, literally and figuritively. Some neighborhoods permit a less onerous application of kinetics than others. Some none at all.

I postulate that your entry fees to FATA and good portions of Baluchistan, N.A. and even NWFP will be huge. The militants won't let you waltz in and begin passing out soccer balls to the kiddies. They believe they've earned these lands and now belong to them-not you. They, if Bajaur and SWAT are any indication, are prepared and intend to fight you for these lands. Frankly, they've little choice. Without FATA and associated areas, the militancy in both nations dries up.

The Pakistani government knows this. It's praying that they can somehow, anyhow, find a way NOT to have to enter the Waziristans with the army. Frankly, given the issues with refugees from both Bajaur and SWAT, the government can't likely imagine just how it'd deal with the issue nor manage the spillover of militants leaking into Pakistan proper.

This isn't going to be fun at all-not with the pre-dispositions of your population fully in favor of regaining strategic space in Afghanistan. That's why the taliban army is in FATA. It's the dominating narrative most understood and accepted by your citizens. Most fervantly pray that Pakistan can reassert it's writ (as seen) over the afghani government and that the GoP will do so through these men. That's why the aborgation of Pakistani sovereignty went with nary a whimper.

Even now, we've "good" taliban and "bad" taliban. Most of your citizens still haven't figured out that the distinction is going to kill you. Until your citizenry can cross this bridge of what's required, you and your army will likely waffle in FATA.

It was easily sold to your people. Now you're trying to sell something altogether different.

I don't think, personally, you've much time left. But that's just me.

I'd say that for all intents and purposes you'll soon be calling it war-nothing but.

[Xeric]

"If you thing in Bajaur and Swat something conventional is happening, you need to be corrected.

Atleast we consider LIC/MIC different from a Conventional WAR, especially when it comes to india.

i hope i m able to make you understand."

Thanks for the effort but you're not. Here's why.

The overarching objective in FATA will be conceptualizd as COIN. COIN operations, though, are premised on entry fees. In some areas, you will flat have to kick the door in to even introduce yourselves, literally and figuritively. Some neighborhoods permit a less onerous application of kinetics than others. Some none at all.

I postulate that your entry fees to FATA and good portions of Baluchistan, N.A. and even NWFP will be huge. The militants won't let you waltz in and begin passing out soccer balls to the kiddies. They believe they've earned these lands and now belong to them-not you. They, if Bajaur and SWAT are any indication, are prepared and intend to fight you for these lands. Frankly, they've little choice. Without FATA and associated areas, the militancy in both nations dries up.

The Pakistani government knows this. It's praying that they can somehow, anyhow, find a way NOT to have to enter the Waziristans with the army. Frankly, given the issues with refugees from both Bajaur and SWAT, the government can't likely imagine just how it'd deal with the issue nor manage the spillover of militants leaking into Pakistan proper.

This isn't going to be fun at all-not with the pre-dispositions of your population fully in favor of regaining strategic space in Afghanistan. That's why the taliban army is in FATA. It's the dominating narrative most understood and accepted by your citizens. Most fervantly pray that Pakistan can reassert it's writ (as seen) over the afghani government and that the GoP will do so through these men. That's why the aborgation of Pakistani sovereignty went with nary a whimper.

Even now, we've "good" taliban and "bad" taliban. Most of your citizens still haven't figured out that the distinction is going to kill you. Until your citizenry can cross this bridge of what's required, you and your army will likely waffle in FATA.

It was easily sold to your people. Now you're trying to sell something altogether different.

I don't think, personally, you've much time left. But that's just me.

I'd say that for all intents and purposes you'll soon be calling it war-nothing but.

i don't know what exactly you are trying to say here.
Why don't you stick to a single point and hammer it out?

Just because we are 'fighting' in the areas as mentioned by you means that we are at War!

There is a difference in what we term as IS(internal security) operations and what we know as War.

These two are not only different just because they spell different but there is alot of demarcation as regards to its conduct and execution and the way funds flow in for an operation.

i never argued that wehther the LIC/MIC in Wana and Swat would one day become a WAR...!! did i...???

For you and your force differentiating these two things might not possible because your forces are trained accordingly and are best suited for a specific type of operation. May it be a situation of a bomb threat in NY, or mashing everything from the air when you went inside iraq or the the kind of ops that you have been conducting in afghanistan.

But our Army was not trained for "Non-Conventional" warfare. Though we do boast that we are best as far as Snow/High Altitude Warfare, Desert warfare, Mountain warfare is concerned but when it came to spec ops we only had the SSG!

So as we only had three battalions of SSG they couldnt have taken care of all that was happening in the tribal areas. Army had to be send in. Initially the Army was not trained for these kind of operation at a large scale, just because we always have been focusing on a "CONVENTIONAL WAR" with india. Where you know from which side the enemy is going to launch what and how the operations are going to unfold as the battle commenced.

You know in a conventional kinda war that what you should expect next after a particular step has been taken. For instance, you know that there has to be a counter-attack when you have attacked, in this scenario you know the approximate strength and the time of that counter-attack. You know where the "Conventional" enemy is forming up and where he is bring his strike elements and where (likely) he would launch an offensive.

This is what battle reading is called.
And this what you cant do when you are fighting an Un-Conventional war (as being done in Swat and Wana)

Though we are well trained to take on anti-terrorist ops as an Army now, we were not fully prepared when we were pushed inside this quicksand of WoT!

So that's what i m trying to put in your head that when you say we are fighting a conventional war in the Tribal areas...you are WRONG!!!

[S-2]

Sorry if my reply appeared rude. I certainly didn't mean to upset you and hope that I haven't done so. I'll try to reply with some thoughts for you tomorrow.

Specifically infantry. I think you may have some misconceptions about how we use our forces and I'd like to explore that with you more.

[Ratus Ratus]

S-2, I think you have forgotten that little phrase K I S S in your attempts to explain your points.

[Ratus Ratus]

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this is in context of the requirements on the eastern border. for the western border, i would tend to agree with your assessment - the development and capability for CI ops is rudimentry at best (excluding the SFs) within the army which definately requires a out-of-the-box thinking esp for regular army formations dedicated for CI. maybe upto corps strength!

My apologies, I was not referring to the eastern border.
My humble opinion of the eastern border is: it will have lots of sabre rattling but not go much further for a few years. It is definitely not in your neighbour’s interest to do much there but keep you tense.
The western areas are at present more critical and in the short term will become worse. This will not alter even if the US, NATO and other allies leave Afghanistan tomorrow.

Ok big negative.