Viable Replacement of Fokker F27-200 and Breguet Atlantique I?

[muse]

---

---

Play the same games as if the context within which these games were meaningful? Obviously I don't think so -- We partnered with China to the benefit of the both of us, we can do so again and with other powers as well -- The whole begging bowl in hand and chip on the shoulder thing playing all sides, is I think unworthy of Pakistan - on the other hand I am more often wrong than I am right.

US and China as strategic competitors ? Sure, however, as I had made the point to Fatman, these countries have very different policies, they see their role and positions very differently their geographic position relative to us is meaningful - China versus India? well sure until the Indian realizes what a waste that is - the relations between US and China are about economic co-dependence and a realization that stability and transparent change is in their mutual interest, it's really not a cold war or colonial context -- Pakistan must be a player with a strong sense of self worth or it will be made to allow the Indians wider representations

[fatman17]

lets take JFT - un-sanctionable - well not quite. our eventual requirement is 250 examples. as of now 100-125 examples can be considered confirmed. china has 150 engines. we shd ask them to keep 25 engines spare for the examples we r talking about. the next 100 engines have been 'put on hold' by russia because suddenly the JFT is a threat to their exports. so until the russians dont change their mind, we can only hope for 100-125 planes as of now. so until the chinese dont come up with a replacement engine which BTW is a few years away, the JFT remains sanctionable. so NO western avionics to upgrade the aircrafts capability.

same goes for any future plans for the J-10/FC-20 - it will require a chinese engine to be in PAF livery. so AFA i am concerned, the type is sanctionable. it is not just the US. its other countries.

italy gave us ToT for the falco UAV. we wanted it armed. the italians refused under pressure from the US.
russia wont sell to us (except for a few Mi-17s) because if india.

my point is very simple - in this day and age - sanctions cannot be over-looked. China has not sanctioned us (and we are grateful) but indirectly our plans with china are 'sanctioned'.

how can we be self-reliant 100% - we have a while to go.

[Super Falcon]

we need something better tha orion sir its old tech and our enemy already bought subs which can go deeppr than what orion range is so we need state of the art system too whcich european countries have an offer

[Luftwaffe]

All current and ordered Orions fleet are being upgraded...
One of the upgrades include ARTR (the Acoustic Receiver Technology Refresh), that enhances the aircraft’s ability tenfold to receive and analyze sonobuoy data.

[fatman17]

lets take JFT - un-sanctionable - well not quite. our eventual requirement is 250 examples. as of now 100-125 examples can be considered confirmed. china has 150 engines. we shd ask them to keep 25 engines spare for the examples we r talking about. the next 100 engines have been 'put on hold' by russia because suddenly the JFT is a threat to their exports. so until the russians dont change their mind, we can only hope for 100-125 planes as of now. so until the chinese dont come up with a replacement engine which BTW is a few years away, the JFT remains sanctionable. so NO western avionics to upgrade the aircrafts capability.

same goes for any future plans for the J-10/FC-20 - it will require a chinese engine to be in PAF livery. so AFA i am concerned, the type is sanctionable. it is not just the US. its other countries.

italy gave us ToT for the falco UAV. we wanted it armed. the italians refused under pressure from the US.
russia wont sell to us (except for a few Mi-17s) because if india.

my point is very simple - in this day and age - sanctions cannot be over-looked. China has not sanctioned us (and we are grateful) but indirectly our plans with china are 'sanctioned'.

how can we be self-reliant 100% - we have a while to go.

just to re-iterate my point on the chinese 'engine' issue;



ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2011


Defence Weekly

AVIC to inject USD300 million a year into jet engine R&D

Jon Grevatt Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok



The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has signalled its intention to inject more than USD300 million per year for five years into the research and development (R&D) of military and commercial jet engines.

The move is a direct response to one of China's most conspicuous industrial capability gaps that could threaten the progress of a range of indigenous platforms, from commercial jet airliners to high-end military fighters such as the Chengdu J-10 & J-20 fifth-generation fighter.

AVIC's president and chief executive officer Zuoming Lin said in comments published on 13 April by the Chinese Communist Party newspaper, the People's Daily , that the state-owned defence enterprise would invest more than CNY10 billion (USD1.53 billion) into aero-engine R&D during the next five years and that the undertaking would represent "[AVIC's] biggest independent investment" during this time frame.

Lin said that China intended to join France, the UK, the US and Russia as countries that can independently develop advanced aircraft engines. He was quoted as saying that the "only shortcoming of China's aviation industry is the engine", adding: "To make China a major player in the world aviation industry, AVIC has placed aircraft engine development as top priority."

ANALYSIS
The development of modern gas turbine engines for military purposes has long been highlighted as a considerable challenge for China. With the EU's continuing arms embargo prohibiting the transfer of advanced engine technologies, China has had to rely on its own development capabilities or acquire what foreign jet-propulsion systems it can.

China's indigenous engine programmes have been focused in recent years on the development of the WS-10 and WS-13 power plants although success has been limited and most major China military aircraft continue to use Russian, or in certain cases Ukrainian, systems.

Lin gave no indication as to how the funds would be spent, although the plan is almost certain to be linked to other engine-related restructuring programmes announced by AVIC during the past year, which are focused on boosting R&D and innovation as well as consolidating manufacturing capabilities.

In May 2010 AVIC said it would promote gas turbine engine development processes by setting up a chain of centrally-controlled R&D centres across major aviation industry hubs in China that would build indigenous competencies and eventually establish a "centre of excellence".

The R&D programme is being conducted in parallel with a drive to enhance collaboration with related domestic industry sectors and a bid to strengthen international co-operation to facilitate technology exchanges. The R&D plan is further supported by a programme, announced by AVIC in November 2010, to construct facilities in Mianyang, in the southwest province of Sichuan, which will be dedicated to jet engine R&D.

On the industrial side, AVIC is supporting investment by consolidating a number of its jet engine manufacturing capabilities. In August 2010 AVIC's subsidiary Xi'an Aero-Engine announced an expansion plan in which it will acquire controlling stakes in several other AVIC-owned military jet engine businesses for more than USD600 million. Xi'an Aero-Engine added that once the reorganisation is complete the company will specialise in developing and manufacturing high- and mid-thrust gas turbines for "fighters" and "fighter bombers".

[Penguin]

we need something better tha orion sir its old tech and our enemy already bought subs which can go deeppr than what orion range is so we need state of the art system too whcich european countries have an offer

FYI, looking at other countries including many bellonging to NATO, Pakistan is not in poor company flying the P-3C...

Military operators:

Argentina: Argentine Naval Aviation - 6 P-3B; based at Base Aeronaval Alte. Zar, Trelew
Australia: Royal Australian Air Force - 18 AP-3C, 1 P-3C (No. 92 Wing – 10 Sqn, 11 Sqn and No. 292 Sqn); based at RAAF Base Edinburgh
In 2002, the RAAF significantly upgraded the P-3C to AP-3C. Also known as Australian Orions they are fitted with a variety of sensors, including digital multi-mode radar, electronic support measures, electro-optics detectors (infra-red and visual), magnetic anomaly detectors, identification friend or foe systems, and acoustic detectors.
Brazil: Brazilian Air Force - 12 P-3AM(Upgraded). Integrated with the CASA FITS (Fully Integrated Tactical System)utilized in Anti-submarine warfare.
Canada: Canadian Forces Air Command - 18 CP-140 Aurora (P-3 Orion airframe with S-3 Viking electronics suite) and three CP-140A Arcturus (CP-140 Aurora without full ASW suite)
Chile: Chilean Navy - 4 P-3A; based at Base Aeronaval Torquemada, Con-Con
Germany: German Navy - 8 P-3C (ex Dutch Navy); based at NAS Nordholz, Marinefliegergeschwader 3 Graf Zeppelin
Greece: Hellenic Navy - 6 P-3B; based at Eleusina Air Base. (two operational, four stored)
Iran: Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force - five P-3F (71ASW SQN); based at Shiraz International Airport (Shahid Douran Air Base)
Japan: Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force P-3CJapan Maritime Self-Defense Force - 101 P-3C, five EP-3, one UP-3C, three UP-3D
New Zealand: Royal New Zealand Air Force - six P-3K2 (5 Sqn); based in RNZAF Base Auckland
Norway: Royal Norwegian Air Force - four P-3C, two P-3N (333 Sqn); based in Andøya Air Station
Portugal: Portuguese Air Force - 5 P-3C (Squadron 601); based in Beja Air Base (BA11). They replace six P-3B based P-3P of which one is still in service.
Republic of China (Taiwan): Republic of China Navy - 12 P-3C (Ordered, with deliveries starting in 2012), with 3 "spare" airframes that might be converting to EP-3E standard;
South Korea: Republic of Korea Navy - eight P-3C, eight P-3CK; based in Pohang Airport and Jeju international airport
Spain: Spanish Air Force - 2 P-3A HW, 4 P-3B being upgraded to P-3M, based at Morón Air Base. P-3B bought from Norway in 1989. It was planned to upgrade all to M standard, however, budgetary constraints led to only four are to be upgraded, with the remaining airplane being used as spares source.
Thailand: Royal Thai Navy - two P-3T, one VP-3T; based at RTNAB U-Tapao (102 Sqn)
United States: United States Navy - 130 P-3C and EP-3E; additional P-3A, P-3B, P-3C and EP-3J aircraft in long-term storage at AMARC.

The government of Singapore has expressed an interest in buying surplus P-3C aircraft from the US Navy.

[fatman17]

---

---

^avionics and sensor upgrades make a huge difference in the capability of a weapons platform