Germany in negotiations with Pakistan over the sale of nuclear sub

[riz1978]

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June 3, 2012, in the Sunday edition of the German Der Spiegel, the Editor in Chief Georg Mascolo wrote that “months-long research proves that the submarines Germany supplies to the Israeli navy make use of equipment capable of carrying nuclear weapons;” the article claims that this was confirmed by German officials.

This statement contradicts earlier remarks by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who said that the vessels cannot carry nuclear weapons. The contradicting statements apparently damage Germany’s position.

Yet, an important clue explaining the contradiction was hidden in the article. Der Spiegel disclosed that Germany is conducting negotiations with Pakistan over the sale of nuclear submarines. This means that the German interest is now to change the public status of these submarines.

Apparently the time for the signature of the agreement with Pakistan is approaching. Keeping the nuclear capabilities of these submarines secret once another country purchases them would have been practically impossible; especially when the two countries purchasing them are not in friendly terms.

Germany probably chose the timing of this disclosure as an answer to Israel’s recent purposeful insults towards Germany (see Germany’s Humiliation). In any case, a new front is being opened in the Middle East, this one certified as being the quietest of all. German Dolphin-class subs are even quieter than nuclear-propelled submarines.
spyghana.com/world-news/germany-creates-new-nuclear-front-in-the-middle-east/

[farhan_9909]

Qing a better choice
4000-5000weight
SLBM launch capability like older golf class
6 of them to be built at home
can pick 42 cruise missile as well

[SamranAli]

though it would be interesting to watch getting these subs when relations are not so good with west. American response?

[KRAIT]

Any info about what type of submarine in discussion...

[sandy_3126]

The only navies in the world to possess a nuke sub are US, Russia, UK, France, China and India. Germany doesn't make any SSN or SSBN to begin with.

The Israeli Sub in question is the dolphin class which is capable of firing nuclear tipped cruise missile, but isn't every submarine armed with CM's capable of doing that? Stupid thread and ridiculous source.

[TOPGUN]

The only navies in the world to possess a nuke sub are US, Russia, UK, France, China and India. Germany doesn't make any SSN or SSBN to begin with.

The Israeli Sub in question is the dolphin class which is capable of firing nuclear tipped cruise missile, but isn't every submarine armed with CM's capable of doing that? Stupid thread and ridiculous source.

There is nothing stupid about it ... perhaps if we can verfiy another source would be wonderful . As far as who has nuk subs and who doesn't we all know that no need to inprint here for pride reasons. We shall have to see if a another source comes out with news if so it is great for PN for those who don't like simple don't have to comment or just don't have to be on site peroid .

[sandy_3126]

There is nothing stupid about it ... perhaps if we can verfiy another source would be wonderful . As far as who has nuk subs and who doesn't we all know that no need to inprint here for pride reasons. We shall have to see if a another source comes out with news if so it is great for PN for those who don't like simple don't have to comment or just don't have to be on site peroid .

Germany doesn't make nuclear subs, look at the title of the thread. What can be more stupid?

[Yeti]

What a retarded thread at least do some basic research before posting

[mjnaushad]

Yet another rumor......

[Penguin]

June 3, 2012, in the Sunday edition of the German Der Spiegel, the Editor in Chief Georg Mascolo wrote that “months-long research proves that the submarines Germany supplies to the Israeli navy make use of equipment capable of carrying nuclear weapons;” the article claims that this was confirmed by German officials.

This statement contradicts earlier remarks by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who said that the vessels cannot carry nuclear weapons. The contradicting statements apparently damage Germany’s position.

Yet, an important clue explaining the contradiction was hidden in the article. Der Spiegel disclosed that Germany is conducting negotiations with Pakistan over the sale of nuclear submarines. This means that the German interest is now to change the public status of these submarines.

Apparently the time for the signature of the agreement with Pakistan is approaching. Keeping the nuclear capabilities of these submarines secret once another country purchases them would have been practically impossible; especially when the two countries purchasing them are not in friendly terms.

Germany probably chose the timing of this disclosure as an answer to Israel’s recent purposeful insults towards Germany (see Germany’s Humiliation). In any case, a new front is being opened in the Middle East, this one certified as being the quietest of all. German Dolphin-class subs are even quieter than nuclear-propelled submarines.
spyghana.com/world-news/germany-creates-new-nuclear-front-in-the-middle-east/

This is the SPiegel article (in 6 parts) on the Israeli Navy Dolphin subs and there capabilities. The word Pakistan does not appear in any of the 6 part afaik. Let alone negotiations about nuclear submarines.
Israel Deploys Nuclear Weapons on German-Built Submarines - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Your Germany Creates New Nuclear Front in the Middle East contains a link to the original article at The 4th Media » Germany Creates New Nuclear Front in the Middle East and this says

" Der Spiegel disclosed that Germany is conducting negotiations with Pakistan over the sale of nuclear submarines...
Apparently the time for the signature of the agreement with Pakistan is approaching...
Germany sized the opportunity to unofficially announce the new deal with Pakistan...
If Germany will supply dolphin submarines also to Pakistan, the latter would have assured its second strike capabilities against Israel....
The weapons’ systems being purchased by Israel and Pakistan are formidable and apparently unmatched in their technical capabilities. The new German submarines feature an air-independent propulsion system which uses hydrogen fuel cells"

In other words, it is talking about (past) negotiations with Pakistan for Type 212A/214 non-nuclear submarines which - if purchased - could be outfitted with (some unknown) nuclear tippes missile (e.g. sublaunched Babur)

Lets not confuse nuclear powered subs with nuclear armed (but conventionally e.g. AIP powered) subs. And lets not confuse (stalled) negotiations for purchase with actual purchase. And conventionally armed SSK with nuclear armed SSK.

Der Spiegel ....Doh!

Related: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...A-spiegel.html

[Skorpian]

If there were really such negotiations, I highly doubt the US would allow the purchase to go by that easily.

[Penguin]

Searching Der Spiegel Online with "Pakistan + submarine" yields 7 articles, the oldest from 2005 and the newest two from 2011.

Of the newest 2, this one is of interest:

U-Turn on U-Boats: Thyssen Plans Withdrawal from Submarine Joint Venture - SPIEGEL ONLINE

U-Turn on U-Boats: Thyssen Plans Withdrawal from Submarine Joint Venture

German group ThyssenKrupp wants to pull out of a London-based joint venture with industrial services company Ferrostaal that sells submarines, SPIEGEL has learned. Insiders say the move was prompted by corruption allegations

ThyssenKrupp AG wants to end its cooperation with the industrial services company Ferrostaal over the sale of submarines "as soon as possible" and will cancel the agreement unilaterally if necessary, according to a letter sent by the executive board of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems to Ferrostaal board member Joachim Ludwig on Oct. 20, SPIEGEL has learned.

The two businesses have been involved in a joint venture called Marine Force International (MFI) based in London. That company was founded in 2004 in order to sell submarines built by ThyssenKrupp subsidiary HDW around the world.

ThyssenKrupp's planned withdrawal is believed to be linked to a corruption scandal involving Ferrostaal. The Munich public prosecutor's office has accused Ferrostaal of paying millions of euros in bribes to Greece related to the purchase of 214-class submarines. The joint venture has been widely cited as an example of how German and other European companies have massively profited from a Greek government that has, for years, spent beyond its means. Many German firms doing business in the country have also been complicit in corruption.

Insiders say that ThyssenKrupp also likely wants to get out of the consortium because MFI itself has also recently been suspected of corruption, regarding questionable payments involved in its sale of submarines to South Korea. After a SPIEGEL report last week, ThyssenKrupp had to concede that it transferred millions of euros to an intermediary suspected of corruption in Seoul, despite the fact that MFI knew by 2007, at the latest, that the intermediary had already been convicted of bribing members of the Korean military in 1993.

The business dealings of MFI were scrutinized in a confidential report compiled by the US law firm Debevoise & Plimpton. In its investigation, the firm could not find concrete evidence of MFI paying bribes, but its report lists numerous inconsistencies related to submarine deals with Pakistan, Indonesia, Turkey, Italy and Egypt.

The attorneys investigated, for example, a deal in Turkey that involved a questionable loan of more than €2 million ($2.8 million) to a local business partner. In Indonesia, the local intermediary allegedly blatantly demanded that the company "line the pockets of my friends."

... no subs forthcoming from Germany, me thinks.

Related: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-681525.html

[razgriz19]

stop spreading rumours.
deal with Germany is over. Everyone knows it.

[niaz]

This is a very misleading article. German Navy has about half dozen submarines all of the 212 class. These are the quietest submarines in the world equipped with AIP. Pakistan has been in talks with Germany for acquiring 214 (export version of 212) for at least a couple of years but nothing came out of it mainly due to lack of funds.

There is huge difference between Submarines that can fire nuclear tipped missiles and a nuclear submarine. For example German 212 has a submerged displacement of about 1800 tons and a crew of about 27. Germany does not have any nuclear powered submarine.

On the other hand, UK Trafalgar SSN is 5,300 tons with complement of 130 officers and men. IN Chakra also displaces 8,000 tons. IN Arihant (under construction) is 6,000 tons with a complement of 95. Chinese SSN's are also in the 8000 tons class

Understand PN Augusts 90B's are being equipped with nuclear tipped Babur missiles. Would you classify Augusta 90B as SSN?

[punjabimunda]

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if any country gives pak a nuke sub that country wont get a good treatment from india, something they dont wanna want happen to them.