Names of Pak ships

[wtf]

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In another thread, a discussion started about naming ships after Tipu etc.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...tml#post378776

India mostly names ships after places or give them people's names without reference to anything else (eg:INS Sukanya = INS good girl).

Pakistan on the other hand named ships after Muslim kings/generals. Recently though they have moved to naming ships after places (PNS Gwadar). What do you think ? Should the names reflect Islamic heritage irrespective of nation (PNS Tipu = King of Mysore, PNS Shahjahan = King of Delhi, PNS Badr - A battle between Arabs) or should it be Pakistan specific (PNS Gwadar, Ports named after Jinnah) ?

[muse]

I'm not so sure it's a "either/or" situation, for my money, those servicemen who have contributed greatly should also be honored, however; I would have preferred that along with names that a number also designate ships/boats.

[PAFAce]

India mostly names ships after places or give them people's names without reference to anything else (eg:INS Sukanya = INS good girl).

Pakistan on the other hand named ships after Muslim kings/generals. Recently though they have moved to naming ships after places (PNS Gwadar). What do you think ? Should the names reflect Islamic heritage irrespective of nation (PNS Tipu = King of Mysore, PNS Shahjahan = King of Delhi, PNS Badr - A battle between Arabs) or should it be Pakistan specific (PNS Gwadar, Ports named after Jinnah) ?

I think the Pakistani naming system is great. It represents our rich heritage, the beautiful mix of Islamic history and the history of the subcontinent, and it represents well our pride. Al Khalid, Al Zarrar, PNS Tipu Sultan, the names of the Hatf series missilies (Ghauri, Ghaznavi etc.), these are all absolutely brilliant names in my opinion. In fact, when I first heard the name "JF-17 Thunder" I was like "wtf kind of name is that?". If I had some say in the naming of the jet, I would suggest "al-Buraq", name of the steed that took Prophet Muhammad (SAS) on the night of Isra and Mairaj. It literally means "lightning". That would have been an awsome name for the first "Islamic" jet, in my opinion.

Just as an addition to what you said, we don't just name things after people or places, but also significant objects in our history, such as the "Hatf" sword. I have no problems with the current naming system. I think it should continue.

muse Your idea is great as well. Honouring the engineers, planners etc. involved with the design.

[wtf]

I'm not so sure it's a "either/or" situation, for my money, those servicemen who have contributed greatly should also be honored, however; I would have preferred that along with names that a number also designate ships/boats.

Isn't the number system like a "class" of ships ? For example Zulfiqar class will have the first ship named Zulfiqar etc?

I was asking the "either/or" question because of the British Navy tradition. They have pretty much run out of names for their ships, but still try to keep a "theme" in naming. They started with the idea of naming ships after people. (eg:HMS Nelson)
Naming conventions for destroyers of the Royal Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Japan Navy never names ships after people, but they have a "-Maru" theme going with everything they make. (I think it means a fort or something).

United States Navy names are after States and places (Kitty Hawk) or after stories/myths (Nautilus!). India seems to have left the British tradition out and copied the US naming convention. (Vikramaditya, Godawari)
I was wondering what the picture was within Pakistan. I think naming ships after historical people is a bad idea - people do both good and bad things, so a name can be misinterpreted. I like the war heroes idea, but it is not common in Navies right ?

[wtf]

If I had some say in the naming of the jet, I would suggest "al-Buraq", name of the steed that took Prophet Muhammad (SAS) on the night of Isra and Mairaj. It literally means "lightning". That would have been an awsome name for the first "Islamic" jet, in my opinion.

Barak, the Israeli missile system is named the same - "lightning".

[muse]

Al-Burag -- when "Bijli' won't do?

[wtf]

I think the Pakistani naming system is great. It represents our rich heritage, the beautiful mix of Islamic history and the history of the subcontinent, and it represents well our pride. Al Khalid, Al Zarrar, PNS Tipu Sultan, the names of the Hatf series missilies (Ghauri, Ghaznavi etc.), these are all absolutely brilliant names in my opinion. In fact, when I first heard the name "JF-17 Thunder" I was like "wtf kind of name is that?". If I had some say in the naming of the jet, I would suggest "al-Buraq", name of the steed that took Prophet Muhammad (SAS) on the night of Isra and Mairaj. It literally means "lightning". That would have been an awsome name for the first "Islamic" jet, in my opinion.

Just as an addition to what you said, we don't just name things after people or places, but also significant objects in our history, such as the "Hatf" sword. I have no problems with the current naming system. I think it should continue.

muse Your idea is great as well. Honouring the engineers, planners etc. involved with the design.

It seems like Pakistan is actively changing the convention nowadays though. The newer ships are named after places (Gwadar) sea formations (Kalmat) etc.

Thunder, lightning etc. are similar to how Indian missiles are named -Agni (fire), Prithvi (earth), Akash (Air) and Nag (Snake) . It also indicates what sort of missile it is SAMs, Surface to Surface, Anti-Tank etc.

Anyway, I can understand why PN changed the name-scheme. Imagine taking PNS Tariq on a goodwill visit to Spain!

[SSGPA1]

I think it should be a combination of both traditions. Pakistan still holds a special place in the Muslim world so we have ships and weapons systems named reflecting our Islamic heritage.

Now the most important thing. Please don't think Pakistanis are weak in history like your new best friend.

India mostly names ships after places or give them people's names without reference to anything else (eg:INS Sukanya = INS good girl).

ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS A BLATANT LIE

Fact is that Sukanya is a reference to story in your mythological book Mahabharata.

The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Tirtha-yatra Parva: Section CXXII

Furthermore, majority of your medals and ships are refernce to Hindu Mythology on which Hinduism is based upon.

Here are the references:

1. INS Sukanya = Mahabharata
The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Tirtha-yatra Parva: Section CXXII

2. MBT Arjun = MahabharataArjuna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Medal Veer Chakara = Mahabharata
Padmavyuha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4. Navy Frigate Brahmaputra = Mahabharata
History of Brahmaputra River

Here is the link to Indian Navy site, copy the name of each ship and paste in Google, then type Mahabharata and then ... Doodh ka doodh aur pani ka pani ...

Ships -- Indian Navy

[wtf]

I think it should be a combination of both traditions. Pakistan still holds a special place in the Muslim world so we have ships and weapons systems named reflecting our Islamic heritage.

Now the most important thing. Please don't think Pakistanis are weak in history like your new best friend.

India mostly names ships after places or give them people's names without reference to anything else (eg:INS Sukanya = INS good girl).

ABOVE STATEMENT OF YOURS IS A BLATANT LIE

Fact is that Sukanya is a reference to story in your mythological book Mahabharata.

The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Tirtha-yatra Parva: Section CXXII

Furthermore, majority of your medals and ships are refernce to Hindu Mythology on which Hinduism is based upon.

Here are the references:

1. INS Sukanya = Mahabharata
The Mahabharata, Book 3: Vana Parva: Tirtha-yatra Parva: Section CXXII

2. MBT Arjun = MahabharataArjuna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Medal Veer Chakara = Mahabharata
Padmavyuha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4. Navy Frigate Brahmaputra = Mahabharata
History of Brahmaputra River

Here is the link to Indian Navy site, copy the name of each ship and paste in Google, then type Mahabharata and then ... Doodh ka doodh aur pani ka pani ...

Ships -- Indian Navy

That Sukanya does not have a particularly nice history. Not sure if the ship was named after the mythical character.

Sukanya | Suite101.com

I originally thought they were not, because Sukanya is not a famous name from Mahabharata. Sukanya also means good girl in Hindi/Sanskrit and many Indian languages. On the other hand after some googling, found that Sukanya has a sister ship (boat?) called Subhadra - who is a more famous name from myth. So maybe they are named after people from Mahabharata. Oddly, another sister ship is called Sarayu (which is a river). I think they lost the theme there (or I can't find one if there is). That whole class of Patrol boats is named oddly, I think.

Brahmaputra is a river - most likely named after river than the myth, because its sister ship is Godavari (another river), Ganga and Gomati.

Non-navy terms- Outside Navy it is pretty common to use mythological names, but not all that you mentioned are the correct uses.

Veer Chakra literally means bravery medal. The confusion is because "Chakra" also means wheel, even in contemporary Hindi (same root as Chakkar - circle). Most medals in the Armed forces are called some chakra or the other - like Param Veer Chakra, Shaurya Chakra etc. Literally, it means highest bravery medal, medal of valor etc. The link you provided is to Padmavyuha - a military formation. Chakra Vyuha is literally a formation shaped like a circle. A chakra (wheel ) is also the symbol on the Indian flag, though that came from Ashoka's wheel, not the formation. Chakra also stands for "time" in Indian/Budhist myth.

Arjun is certainly based on the mythical character. T-90 is called Bhishma -another character from Mahabharata. Army tanks after Vijayanta are on a Mahabharata track, I think.

[wtf]

Al-Burag -- when "Bijli' won't do?

Bijli ? Sounds like a cheerful girls name :-) Buraq on the other hand sounds like a growl (I think the "r' sound has something to do with it).

Anyway is an aircraft a male or a female ? Ships used to be generally considered a "she" (sister ships, mother ship etc.) but are often named after men. Civilians ships commonly have women's name (HMS Queen Elizabeth ).

[a1b2c145]

Bijli ? Sounds like a cheerful girls name :-) Buraq on the other hand sounds like a growl (I think the "r' sound has something to do with it).

Anyway is an aircraft a male or a female ? Ships used to be generally considered a "she" (sister ships, mother ship etc.) but are often named after men. Civilians ships commonly have women's name (HMS Queen Elizabeth ).

What about ships named after ferocious animals ,rivers and mountains?
or named after Pakistani lands occupied by India????????

[muse]

Bijli ? Sounds like a cheerful girls name :-) Buraq on the other hand sounds like a growl (I think the "r' sound has something to do with it).

Anyway is an aircraft a male or a female ? Ships used to be generally considered a "she" (sister ships, mother ship etc.) but are often named after men. Civilians ships commonly have women's name (HMS Queen Elizabeth

I love it - a "cheerful" girl, eh

Interesting - is "thunder" female or masculine? that really is interesting -- and what of "lightning" male or female?

[PAFAce]

In English, there isn't really a gender for each noun, but in Urdu there is. "Lightning" or "Bijli" in Urdu is definitely female (as in "bijli gire gi" or "bijli giri thi"). al-Buraq was a female steed (please correct me if I am wrong) and is a very famous and deeply respected creature amongst Muslims. I stand by what I said earlier, al-Buraq would be a brilliant name for a "Muslim" fighter jet.

wtf, allow me to respectfully disagree with you. I think naming things after historic personalities is a brilliant idea, and support Pakistan's current naming convention. We are a nation that is proud of our heritage, and we like to display that with great pride. I don't think that random nouns, such as Thunder, Lightning, Raptor, Predator etc., are very deep and meaningful. Either have a name that has a deep-rooted meaning, like Hatf or Shaheen or Tipu Sultan or al-Khalid etc., or give it a descriptive name, like "Light Combat Aircraft" or "Joint Strike Fighter".

[SSGPA1]

That Sukanya does not have a particularly nice history. Not sure if the ship was named after the mythical character.

Sukanya | Suite101.com

I originally thought they were not, because Sukanya is not a famous name from Mahabharata. Sukanya also means good girl in Hindi/Sanskrit and many Indian languages. On the other hand after some googling, found that Sukanya has a sister ship (boat?) called Subhadra - who is a more famous name from myth. So maybe they are named after people from Mahabharata. Oddly, another sister ship is called Sarayu (which is a river). I think they lost the theme there (or I can't find one if there is). That whole class of Patrol boats is named oddly, I think.

Brahmaputra is a river - most likely named after river than the myth, because its sister ship is Godavari (another river), Ganga and Gomati.

Non-navy terms- Outside Navy it is pretty common to use mythological names, but not all that you mentioned are the correct uses.

Veer Chakra literally means bravery medal. The confusion is because "Chakra" also means wheel, even in contemporary Hindi (same root as Chakkar - circle). Most medals in the Armed forces are called some chakra or the other - like Param Veer Chakra, Shaurya Chakra etc. Literally, it means highest bravery medal, medal of valor etc. The link you provided is to Padmavyuha - a military formation. Chakra Vyuha is literally a formation shaped like a circle. A chakra (wheel ) is also the symbol on the Indian flag, though that came from Ashoka's wheel, not the formation. Chakra also stands for "time" in Indian/Budhist myth.

Arjun is certainly based on the mythical character. T-90 is called Bhishma -another character from Mahabharata. Army tanks after Vijayanta are on a Mahabharata track, I think.

So Indian weapons and ships do refer to Hindu mythology and that was the point I made earlier.

All nations take pride in their heritage and so it is not strange of Indian weapon systems make reference to Hinduism.

[wtf]

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So Indian weapons and ships do refer to Hindu mythology and that was the point I made earlier.

All nations take pride in their heritage and so it is not strange of Indian weapon systems make reference to Hinduism.

I don't think India should be naming anything after Hindu myths. I can't see how it will ever get balanced- 15% Muslim reservation in ship names? and 2% Christian names?

The general theme at least in the Navy is to name after places/rivers. That at least is clearly non-controversial and absolutely and undoubtedly Indian. And it nicely fits in with the US naming convention. I don't know how Subhadra and Sukanya squeezed into the list. All others at least fit some sort of a theme.

DRDO mostly named after natural elements and stars. ISRO/BARC picks names from Hindu myth along with other funny names (Kamini =lover, name of a nuclear reactor!!).