Merlin Submarines Myth and Reality

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

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I have been hearing that some how the French are tryng to sell us something of low quality and how evil they are for selling us the Agosta

So I had to do some research ,

Merlin Subs are the Latest - Submarine Units that the DCN company makes

Merlin was a project that was to benefit Spain/French - so its definitly going to have great quality, the spanish were enticed by partnership with American company and thus they went away pissing frech off - Think of it as the EURO FIGHTER for submarines

Merlin > Scorpion > Agosta

Pakistan have formal request for 3 to 5 Subs in this deal

The Merlin Sub is special although it is not a Nuclear submarine its suppose to bring in TOT of various other vital technologies used in Nuclear Submarines in Pakistan Navy's hands

Many moons ago , DCN/Spanish partners were building this prototype sub which was to be used by the Spanish/French Navies

In the middle the Spanish partners severed their ties and went with third party and started to develop their own top , the scorpean project thus became vacant so it was sold to indians , it was offered to Pakistan

Pakistan being the top client for French , have a strategic oppourtunity

a) Build upon the trust built since the Mirage days between French /
Pakistan

b) Also the recent talks between Mr Zardari + Sarkozy nuclear
security and other perks

So the "mannerism that should be followed is as such"

We need to get the "Merlins" because it will open Civilian Nuclear cooperation doors between French/Pakistan

We need to give a little to gain a little

Merlins (Secret Program) are top of the line on DCN company , same company that
also supplies India scorpean which is lower/older sub then Merlins

So we will have a genuine technology advantage

The only concern from the French side is Pakistan wants to use the
Harpoos on these Submarines, while the frech want to give out the excocet missiles so there is negotiation issue involved

Merlins have not been offered to any other country

But Saudi Arabia/Vanazuella/Brazil/UAE have all requested Merlins , now and we are getting these with out even stressing too much about it


Secondary issue is delivery

Pakistan as requested that it gets the subs delivered with in 30-40 months the frist one and 1 sub per year after that ...

For a total of 3 new Merlin Subs -

If Pakistan would go for European weapons

From Indian stand point yes they would like you to think that Scorpean are better then Merlins -

But , Merlin is top of the line , sub - DCNS company and will borrow technology from the Nuclear submarine platform so its a great submarine

Also it will open more doors of strategic cooperation between French/Pakistan

The german deals are also beneficial as well - but the Frech look very serious


La Tribune - article du 20/NaN/1/11
DCN travaille sur un projet de nouveau sous-marin

Ce projet de DCN, dont le nom de code est Marlin, pourrait être proposé au Pakistan.

Dans un marché naval très porteur, DCN travaille, selon nos informations, sur un projet de sous-marin qui pourrait succéder à l'exportation au Scorpène franco-espagnol à propulsion classique, déjà acheté par le Chili (pour deux exemplaires), la Malaisie (deux) et l'Inde (six). Ce projet, dont le nom de code est Marlin, reste pour l'heure un programme interne de DCN, qui devrait être développé à partir de certaines technologies du Scorpène.

Les Espagnols, qui ont un programme concurrent en cours de développement, le S80, et ont préféré des groupes américains en tant que fournisseurs du système d'armes, n'ont pas été invités à participer à ce nouveau projet.

Le projet Marlin répond de façon précise à une demande officielle du Pakistan qui veut, en acquérant 3 à 5 bâtiments, poursuivre son effort d'équipement après l'achat de trois sous-marins Agosta à la France en 1994 pour 820 millions d'euros. Les Espagnols et les Allemands sont déjà sur les rangs. Paris ayant vendu le Scorpène à l'Inde, il lui faut un autre matériel pour répondre à la demande d'Islamabad. Le Marlin serait donc tout indiqué.

Problème pour DCN : elle n'a pas obtenu de feu vert afin de pouvoir exporter ce matériel. Le conseiller diplomatique et sherpa du chef de l'État, Maurice Gourdault-Montagne, s'est opposé ces derniers mois à la plupart des demandes d'exportation émanant de groupes français en direction du Pakistan, préférant privilégier les liens commerciaux avec l'Inde. Une réunion tenue avant Noël à l'Élysée n'a rien changé. DCN n'a donc pas encore reçu d'agrément de la Commission interministérielle pour l'étude des exportations de matériels de guerre (CIEMG).

Concurrence internationale. Or, le Scorpène se heurte désormais à la concurrence de nouveaux modèles étrangers sur un marché des sous-marins en très forte croissance. De très nombreux pays ont lancé ou étudient des projets d'acquisition. Dans ce cadre, les équipes commerciales d'Armaris, société commune entre Thales et DCN, attendent beaucoup des appels d'offres lancés au Brésil, au Venezuela (pour quatre unités) et au Chili (pour deux sous-marins supplémentaires). Des pays du Moyen-Orient (Arabie Saoudite, Émirats arabes unis) réfléchissent aussi à la création de sous-marinades.

The death of the French DCN engineers was probbly case of espionage against Pakistan's national interest from Spy agencies - which goes to show you why some folks are trying hard fro this deal not to go thru

Common sense is - if french have given us 200+ Mirage planes plus all the upgrades and fancy stuff , why is it so bad and evil to take the top sub in their DCN company ? ? ?

Its newer then the Scorpean class - and way more advance then Agosta even


Also point to note is that DCNS also happens to be pionner in French Nuclear Submarie engines and other advance systems for subs so developing ties with DCNS compay is a great strategic plus


DCNS Company also produces unmanned submerged vehicles that are launched and recovered from their submarines

They also develop Aircraft carriers and Frigates --

I can see why strategically DCNS is more viable and right choice vs German Option

When we got agosta we got all the weaponry with that too , so same will happen with the Merlin class subs as well -

Why just rely on Harpoons ?? US weapons systems

The same company also works with Berracuda Nuclear Submarine as well -

So if we look at logic , we will get hands on the Berracuda or at least the Nuclear engines if French/Pakistan cooperation contines based on Sarkozy/Zardari meeting

[Tomahawk]

PN already selected U-214 over Marlin and has given its recommendation in favor of U-214.
DCN offered Pakistan with Agosta-90Bs and then offered India with better submarines Scorpene, and now they are offering us a submarine which is acclaimed to be better than Scorpene, and after that they will offer India with something better and the story will go on, because it is all about business and making money.
Ofcourse Marlin is just on the papers and does not physically exist.
All the attack submarines that has entered in PN service were of French origin (except for PNS Ghazi), may be its time to have submarines other than French origin and just not become monotonous and dependent on one country's technology. Just like PAF is looking to have J-10s in addition to F-16s Block 52.

[Super Falcon]

i think we have to focus on u 214 rather than merlin we also look over merlin before diciding which sub we buy

[nightrider_saulat]

i am with type-214 because it is best among the available option

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

From a strategic point of defence

Merlin is better option I looked at the specs for Scorpion Subs and those are pretty good numbers. The sub is very capable of launching 2-3 weeks missions "easily"

Merlin is a platform that is above Scorpion and was meant to be developed for France and Spain , since Spain moved with US to build S80 or something , the french figured might as well give the Sub techology to a future ally who is already a defence partner

From a Business stand point - the potential to develop stroger ties with France is vital sice even in European circle Frace is always a stand out and they are always trying to froge new alliaces

Merlin program - Seems state of the Art I mean R&D , think of it as
JF17 program, brand new better then Scorpion and even better the technology will be used will be derived from Nuclear Subs , so that we will also get a major enhancemet over our existing fleet.

U214 option is great option but Merlin Subs will open more doors for defence cooperation -

Its BRAND new sub - Latest Top of line
UAE/Saudia/Vanezuella/ Australia all interested in that -

Once we have some foot hold with Merlins we can opt to go for Berracuda subs they have or their frigates or Carrier

German deal is one dimentional

Just like our defence deals grew after we dealt with china over time , we can also expand our cooperation with France we already have the trust with Mirage plane deals and Agosta time to take the defence cooperation to next level with Merlin deal - and next step would be a carrier or nuclear sub ...

[Super Falcon]

no u 214 is best for me and pakistan no merlin

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

no u 214 is best for me and pakistan no merlin

I am actually in favor of both

3 U214 > Just a sub first deal with germay

3 Merlins when did I saw only Merlins -> Leads to weapos > Nuclear Sub




I am up for 3 U214, 3 Merlins, 6 chinese subs to beef up naval forces

Current strength for navy is like coast guard services

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Lets come to reality 5 U boats SINO- INDUS joint nuclear subs = 2 and agosta 90b i think 12-14 subs are excellent.

[Myth_buster_1]

I am actually in favor of both

3 U214 > Just a sub first deal with germay

3 Merlins when did I saw only Merlins -> Leads to weapos > Nuclear Sub




I am up for 3 U214, 3 Merlins, 6 chinese subs to beef up naval forces

Current strength for navy is like coast guard services

Its impossible for PN to operate 4 different type of submarines with such a small navy budget.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Its impossible for PN to operate 4 different type of submarines with such a small navy budget.

Tu Budget baraho doosto ...
Dunya age bar rahi hai, budget braho doosta

20 subs , is minimum for our national defence - otherwise we will be whipped around like rag dolls for good

[SEAL]

Merlin can't fire Harpoon.

[Myth_buster_1]

Tu Budget baraho doosto ...
Dunya age bar rahi hai, budget braho doosta

20 subs , is minimum for our national defence - otherwise we will be whipped around like rag dolls for good

Then can i have 50 subs for just in case we have to fight isreal as well. Merlin is going to be another burden for PN, if they have the money to buy 3 more new subs then 3+3 Type-214 is most favorable option and most realistic. The more type-214 the better it is for pakistan, and those who are going to make bogus comments such as India is going to get "sensitive" remote control technology from germans are nothing but fools. PN is going to benefet alot from type-214 deal as their one of best friend has 80% indigenous input in this project.

[arsalan shafique]

IN THE END
the only thing which matter will be COMMISION....which will be set up by the companies for our beloved president & hIS AdMInistration + government people!!!
whoever is going to pay more commision will win the contract/tender!!!

[garibnawaz]

MARLIN subs are still on paper.

Augusta-70's life span is over and require an immidiate replacement.

U-214 seems to be the only choice.

GB

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

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Merlin's are well already being developed , its a great oppourtunity for Pakistan to Jump on board when the wave is there and ride the wave .....

As much as the people would like to blow the trumpet of Mr Zardari I would agree why the French deal would be critical , I am quite positive , he is on right track specially with his deal with Sarkozy who is expected to visit pakistan to close the deals








Nuclear Propulsion Systems



A Strategic Move - France should be Pakistan's ally since its independent super power that will align well with China-Pakistan-France triangle

Bush stated that france no longer is super power , I think France can prove its a Super Power of world and a great ally



As for dependence on Harpoon missiles , well while its great it has two dependencies

a) Weakess of Harpoons to be intercepted by some defences
b) Sanctions

This is enough of a reason to look for alternative weapon platforms -

The airborn missiles like Harpoons are suspectible to interception from anti missile defeces (like CWIS) systems which could shoot down the airborn missiles in limited numbers... but a submerged torpedoe would be hard to defend against - and that is why we need to get some serious Torpedos.... submerge warfare....

Harpoons perhaps should all be used on our Frigates and destroyers (if we have one)

So Excocet missile is a avaibale platform, and what Pakistan should try to work try to see if it can get the MK48 Torpedoes these are devestating weapons of choice ....

The Weapons system can be 100% french , with TOT or sharing of knowledge or it can be mix.

France has been open to Harpoons but it stated clearly the integration testing and work will have to completed by Pakistan

Capatalize on the brand new subs GREATER efficient subs then our rivals -

I for once do not thing that Harpoons should be our prime naval defeces...... the fuss of the harpoon missiles was caused in Washington since , they would prefer to know the range of harpoons

Its ideal to have weapons whose range and distance can be enhanced and modified

What Pakistan should do is get the Merlins, and invest in Torpedoes similar to MK48 and develop a platfrom

What the merlis give you is 60-80 days missions which is perfect for our navy needs with in our limits

U214 - are primarily good subs , but our bond with France is stronger

DCNS company has produced the MOST SOPHISTICATED CARRIER in Europe , this should be our goal , Merlines and then the French Aircraft carrier

Our platform should be , one that fires submerge torpedoes that are unstopabble missile interception devices ....which fire rounds of ammunition on incoming missiles


A combination (Harpoons) / Torpedoes -


And one must not forget ....How many Subs germans operate ??? 12 ???
Just 12 ... and their subs sold to someone , hey had issues with ... operating it .. there you go ...

Would you go for DCNS ??? Who do frigates, destroyers, corvetts, carriers and naval command units or go with germans - who are ... good no doubt but French are light years ahead.....


HARPOON is not god's sword, its a 1977 weapon, navies have developed certain skills to counter harpoon so its good to mix and match -


Sarkozy visit to boost economic ties with Pak
Published: January 17, 2010
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ISLAMABAD (APP) - Minister of State for Finance and Economic Affairs, Hina Rabbani Khar Saturday expressed the hope that the forthcoming visit of President Sarkozy to Pakistan and the signing of the Joint Declaration would boost relations between the two countries.
She said the relations would move to a new level that would go beyond security to a comprehensive economic and development partnership.
She stated this in her meeting with the Advisor to French President, Jean-David Levitte in France on Saturday where she also discussed various issues related to expanding bilateral relations between the two countries, says a message received here Saturday.
During the meeting the Minister briefed the Advisor on the significance of her visit as the Draft Joint Declaration on the Economic Partnership between Pakistan and France has been discussed and finalized with French Minister of State for External Trade, Ms.
Anne-Marie Idrac. Ms. Khar who is currently visiting France also appreciated President Sarkozy’s support on the Friends of Democratic Pakistan (FoDP) forum.
The Minister emphasized the importance of French support for enhanced market access for Pakistani products to the EU as it would boost exports and create employment opportunities in Pakistan.
She also briefed the Advisor on the direct and indirect cost of war against terror on the Pakistan’s economy and hence the need to provide level playing field to Pakistan in trade with EU. Levitte said that President Sarkozy has indeed special feelings for Pakistan because they are both allies in fighting the same enemy that is terrorism of all kinds.
He also said that engagement of French troops in Afghanistan will be pointless if we do not work hand in hand with Pakistan and that is why it is important to help Pakistan in all possible ways.
He agreed to the need to support Pakistan on the question of market access to the EU and said that Pakistan should get what it needs and deserves.