How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[very]

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I guess its not hard for Pakistan to counter any threat from India if Allah Az-Wo-Jal helps it.

[deckingraj]

I guess its not hard for Pakistan to counter any threat from India if Allah Az-Wo-Jal helps it.

Well Allah is for all...However things might be hard but nothing is impossible....Pakistan has survived for 6 decades against a mighty Adversary...i have no doubts it will continue to do so...

[notorious_eagle]

If i look at history then i see lot of examples where Pakistani establishment has underestimated Indian might..though can't find similar examples on out side...so not sure why you have this impression that only Indians have habit of underestimating their adversary...

Actually i would respectfully disagree with you on this point.

I would say the attitude on the Indian side has been extremely snobby, some of your senior officers have made some very irresponsible statements. Your AVM on record stated that IAF has 5000 targets earmarked inside Pakistan, your former COAS on record stated that India can fight war on two fronts simultaneously. Even an amateur knows of the fact that India at present does not possess the muscle to simultaneously conduct war on two fronts especially against the likes of Pakistan and a giant like China. Thus, i will conclude by saying that India is definitely overestimating its capabilities and underestimating its adversaries.

[deckingraj]

Actually i would respectfully disagree with you on this point.

And there is nothing wrong with that...There must be some valid reasons for you to believe in there... However let me reply with my POV

I would say the attitude on the Indian side has been extremely snobby, some of your senior officers have made some very irresponsible statements. Your AVM on record stated that IAF has 5000 targets earmarked inside Pakistan

I am not sure what is wrong in this particular statement....Can we not identify 5000 targets inside Pakistan??? Are you saying that the statement is a farce or was provocative???? If former then why you think India don't have the capability to identify targets within Pak and if later then what else you would expect in such a high charged atmosphere????

your former COAS on record stated that India can fight war on two fronts simultaneously. Even an amateur knows of the fact that India at present does not possess the muscle to simultaneously conduct war on two fronts especially against the likes of Pakistan and a giant like China.

What??? You are somewhat mislead there...It is more of containment then agressive posture.....A so called two front war is being talked about since the 70's...Even in 71 we had kept spares should China intervene...Not saying that we can blow off both of them together but just want to bring it to your notice then so called two front war is not something that we have not given a good thinking....

Anyways talk to me when you see some action by India/Indian forces where we underestimate our adversary....Talk are more contexual and are victim to media spin...

Thus, i will conclude by saying that India is definitely overestimating its capabilities and underestimating its adversaries.

With all due respect your examples are not enough...Just to give you some recent examples where we did not underestimate our adversary

- Kargil Saga - We did not cross LOC even though would have been easy on our part
- 2003 Military showdown never fructify because we knew the strengths of our adversary
- Mumbai attacks were not responded militarily because we knew the strengths and weakness of our adversary...

Not sure why you have made such an impression...anyways as said if i look into history i do see our adversary underestimating our will and might but hardly a vice-versa...

[very]

Right now our ruling elites Lacks Emaan power otherwise they can counter anything by without even having no materialistic power.

[DARKY]

Dude,I'm done...you are applying free flight projectile physics to powered and guided ballistic missiles.



Yes,both Shaurya and Iskander don't have a defined trajectory.They are one step ahead of DT.



All Pakistani missiles belong to the Hatf series.I presume you are talking about Ghaznavi.Well,I don't know its apogee.



Ok...thanks.


Missile health monitoring and subsequent actions can be termed as AI.

But error correction by feeding GPS data is very crucial to give the missile very high accuracy.INS alone cannot give CEP of less than 100m for MRBMs.
I don't know whether its AI or not,but the mission computer obtains the coordinates on its own.



You are not getting it.Whether the maneuver is blind or not,it is the same for the ABM.In both the cases,the ABM will have to face the same difficulty to counter the incoming missile.

All ABMs have active seekers...and all of them home into the target.But the target can be missed if the missile is maneuvering sharply.

P.S. Sorry for the late reply.

After apogee the motion is more or less projectile.... with very little to no guidance...

Unless and until you can't say about its apogee we can consider it as a ballistic missile.

See there are a whole lot of functions performed by AI modern airplanes like PAK FA would have such computers for its radars and other passive sensors.... GPS can be jammed.... MRBMs have gained CEPs in order of 50m or less with INS.

The maneuvering is limited due to high speed for a ballistic missile warhead and it can perform escape maneuver from a hostile ABM only upto a certain distance and that too blindly.... once the ABM gets into that distance the warhead cannot escape.... and usually the distance i very large.

P.S... Nevermind we all have some work other than this partime nonsense

[notorious_eagle]

I am not sure what is wrong in this particular statement....Can we not identify 5000 targets inside Pakistan??? Are you saying that the statement is a farce or was provocative???? If former then why you think India don't have the capability to identify targets within Pak and if later then what else you would expect in such a high charged atmosphere????

Sir Pakistan is not big enough to have 5000 targets, the number was extremely over inflated by the IAF's AVM. I would argue that at the height of the hysteria when both nations were on full alert Post Mumbai, a statement like this by the AVM was extremely provocative. India can earmark as many targets as they can, but why air it out in the media. Airing these sentiments out in the media only created further hysteria and forced PAF to keep flying its wartime CAP sorties.

What??? You are somewhat mislead there...It is more of containment then agressive posture.....A so called two front war is being talked about since the 70's...Even in 71 we had kept spares should China intervene...Not saying that we can blow off both of them together but just want to bring it to your notice then so called two front war is not something that we have not given a good thinking....

How about the good COAS keeps this strategy to himself instead of blurting out in the media. I will give you a perfect example and something i have honestly admired. If you look at how nicely China has encircled India without even raising any hysteria in the media, its absolutely beautiful. Not only are the Chinese extremely mobile and have their forces in decent side on the Indian border, they are slowly encircling India through naval ports and by forming alliances with India's neighbours. Do you see the Chinese coming out and saying that we are prepared to fight a war on our borders with India. There is an old saying, 'Silence is Golden', and it certainly seems that this is strategy not followed by Indian officers.

Anyways talk to me when you see some action by India/Indian forces where we underestimate our adversary....Talk are more contexual and are victim to media spin...

Well one of your AVM came on the news and made a statement that IAF's adversary referring to Pakistan fears the might of IAF. This to me is extremely funny that an IAF officer has to speak on behalf of PAF to tell us how mighty the IAF is. India's Cold Start Doctrine manoeuvres performed close to the Indo-Pak border is a clear sign of India's over confidence.

- Kargil Saga - We did not cross LOC even though would have been easy on our part

Not at all, crossing the LOC would have not at all been easy for the Indian side. While across the LOC your division sized force was facing less than a battalion sized fighting force with overwhelming airpower, crossing the border would have meant your division would have been facing a well dug in equally sized enemy with the airspace being contested. Although i do agree and see your point here; but we are not in 1999 where the Indian Armed Forces were not fielding the SU30MKI and Smerch in larger numbers.

- 2003 Military showdown never fructify because we knew the strengths of our adversary

Your mobilization was so slow that by the time the Indian Army mobilized a corps level fighting force, it was almost a month and the hysteria had died down.

- Mumbai attacks were not responded militarily because we knew the strengths and weakness of our adversary...

For this part, i agree with you.

Not sure why you have made such an impression...anyways as said if i look into history i do see our adversary underestimating our will and might but hardly a vice-versa...

Well your adversary was being led by bunch of a donkeys whom had no idea what they were doing. My opinion has been formed by looking at the posture and the statements of the officers of the Indian Armed Forces, and by officers i mean high ranking officers.

[AhaseebA]

After apogee the motion is more or less projectile.... with very little to no guidance...

Agreed,but it doesn't applies to modern ballistic missiles.

Unless and until you can't say about its apogee we can consider it as a ballistic missile.

ok...

See there are a whole lot of functions performed by AI modern airplanes like PAK FA would have such computers for its radars and other passive sensors.... GPS can be jammed.... MRBMs have gained CEPs in order of 50m or less with INS.

Agreed,but without an external correction input,high accuracy cannot be achieved....unless you have 2-3 levels of INS including Laser Ring gyroscopes....expensive...

The maneuvering is limited due to high speed for a ballistic missile warhead and it can perform escape maneuver from a hostile ABM only upto a certain distance and that too blindly.... once the ABM gets into that distance the warhead cannot escape.... and usually the distance i very large.

Yes,it is limited....but blind or not blind,it works...
Unless the ABM has a very high explosive warhead or a nuclear warhead,it cannot damage the Ballistic missile.The Patriot SAM didn't damage the incoming Scud at 600m.

[deckingraj]

Look we have gone way to Off Topic...As said earlier you must have some valid reasons to believe what you do..Though the examples you are citing are not satisfactory(atleast for me)...I hope this is our last exchange within this thread on this particular topic...

Sir Pakistan is not big enough to have 5000 targets, the number was extremely over inflated by the IAF's AVM. I would argue that at the height of the hysteria when both nations were on full alert Post Mumbai, a statement like this by the AVM was extremely provocative. India can earmark as many targets as they can, but why air it out in the media. Airing these sentiments out in the media only created further hysteria and forced PAF to keep flying its wartime CAP sorties.

See you are completely ignoring my point...Talk to me when you see an indian action where adversary is underestimated....You never know what was the thought process going in there...In such a charged atmosphere, when our financial capital was under seige for almost three days and where our govt. was actually mulling about surgical strikes in Pak, a provovative statement from our armed forces is not a surprise for me.....How do you know what kind of surgical strikes we were after????

How about the good COAS keeps this strategy to himself instead of blurting out in the media.

Who told you that the strategy is out??? I am sorry but i believe you guys are hyper-sensitive to this issue...When our COAS talked about two-front war then only one side jumped up and down whereas the other side kept quiet...Probably a point to circumspect....

I will give you a perfect example and something i have honestly admired. If you look at how nicely China has encircled India without even raising any hysteria in the media, its absolutely beautiful. Not only are the Chinese extremely mobile and have their forces in decent side on the Indian border, they are slowly encircling India through naval ports and by forming alliances with India's neighbours. Do you see the Chinese coming out and saying that we are prepared to fight a war on our borders with India. There is an old saying, 'Silence is Golden', and it certainly seems that this is strategy not followed by Indian officers.

Now here you are comparing Apples and Oranges...Free print media vs a state controlled media...b/w Chinese encircling is not gone unnoticed...You have seen counter measures already in place/being worked upon...This is irrespective of the fact that Chinese are quiet or not...

Well one of your AVM came on the news and made a statement that IAF's adversary referring to Pakistan fears the might of IAF. This to me is extremely funny that an IAF officer has to speak on behalf of PAF to tell us how mighty the IAF is. India's Cold Start Doctrine manoeuvres performed close to the Indo-Pak border is a clear sign of India's over confidence.

what??? Did you for real think that???? Where else you want us to practice our doctorine meant specifically for Pakistan??? In our Eastern border??? How is that over-confidence???

Not at all, crossing the LOC would have not at all been easy for the Indian side. While across the LOC your division sized force was facing less than a battalion sized fighting force with overwhelming airpower, crossing the border would have meant your division would have been facing a well dug in equally sized enemy with the airspace being contested. Although i do agree and see your point here; but we are not in 1999 where the Indian Armed Forces were not fielding the SU30MKI and Smerch in larger numbers.

See there are many accounts which say's that the best way of minimizing casualties at our end was to go for an easy target...Fighting with well dug enemy on Kargil heights was not the easy route...Anyways my point being we don't underestimate the enemy which is visible in the actions...

Your mobilization was so slow that by the time the Indian Army mobilized a corps level fighting force, it was almost a month and the hysteria had died down.

See reason A or B...My point is very simple....If we overestimate our capabilities then we would have gone ahead with the plan...We did not proves something, no????

For this part, i agree with you.

Great...

Well your adversary was being led by bunch of a donkeys whom had no idea what they were doing. My opinion has been formed by looking at the posture and the statements of the officers of the Indian Armed Forces, and by officers i mean high ranking officers.

See it does not matter who the adversary was being led by...My only point is that looking into the history i see many examples where our adversary has overestimated their might and underestimated us...be it 65, be it 71, be it 99...However i don't see similar examples on our side...

Just to give you an example...Our media has highlighted many provocations by Chinese side...Now there may be some truth in it but if you see GOI has very well kept its cool...The so called encircling by China is being countered...Look east policy saw the light and is being worked upon...This is being done while trade with China has touched $60 Billion and is growing as we are talking...I hope you are getting the point...We ain't no fools and neither are being led by one's....

[HZR2011]

Technology is evolving fast , it just would be a matter of time when Pakistan would have high end - long range - super/hypersonic - Stealth cruise missiles carrying TNs with multiple erector launchpads to defeat the ABMs.

As for the Ballistic Missiles , new generation of them ones are in planning all over the world and the focus is on how to defeat the AMB and DEWs - CIWS etc. Pakistan surely will get its piece of the pie.

India is already producing it!!!
Shaurya 1000KM Mach 7 speed tested 3 times ..the last test missile was taken from production lot....

So when is pakistan going to acheive a comparable missile like shaurya??

[AhaseebA]

India is already producing it!!!
Shaurya 1000KM Mach 7 speed tested 3 times ..the last test missile was taken from production lot....

So when is Pakistan going to acheive a comparable missile like shaurya??

First,testing only 3 times before a ballistic missile enters production is not a good sign...I don't want to criticize unnecessarily,but Pakistan tests them 4-6 times.One last test,conducted after these ones,incorporates a cold nuclear warhead (U-235).This last test,if successful,marks the starting of production.The end user trials (ASFC tests) are conducted again if necessary...

Second...Pakistan is not close to developing a hypersonic cruise-cum-quasi-ballistic-missile (similar to Shourya) till 2015,though it is the need of the hour.

I wish Pakistan had two missiles in development,BrahMos and Shaurya.....they are very effective in countering ABMs.

[DrSomnath999]

Hai,guys tejas is excellent ,my first ride on tejas ....love u baby...indian airforce mmmmuuuuhhh

ok great ,when did u ride it & r u airforce pilot .
BTW it was an offtopic post

[The_magnificent]

Hai,guys tejas is excellent ,my first ride on tejas ....love u baby...indian airforce mmmmuuuuhhh

This was funniest !st post of the forum.

[GORKHALI]

First,testing only 3 times before a ballistic missile enters production is not a good sign...I don't want to criticize unnecessarily,but Pakistan tests them 4-6 times.One last test,conducted after these ones,incorporates a cold nuclear warhead (U-235).This last test,if successful,marks the starting of production.The end user trials (ASFC tests) are conducted again if necessary...

Second...Pakistan is not close to developing a hypersonic cruise-cum-quasi-ballistic-missile (similar to Shourya) till 2015,though it is the need of the hour.

I wish Pakistan had two missiles in development,BrahMos and Shaurya.....they are very effective in countering ABMs.

It's land version of K 15 sagarika ,so why you need to again test 8times again as in the case of K 15,all they did is like they succesfully tested in land 3times and it's more than enough to establish its reliablity and accuracy.

[AhaseebA]

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It's land version of K 15 sagarika ,so why you need to again test 8times again as in the case of K 15,all they did is like they succesfully tested in land 3times and it's more than enough to establish its reliablity and accuracy.

Oops,forgot that...I excuse...

If K-15 has been tested enough times (please specify number),than its perfectly okay to induct Shaurya after 3 tests...