How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[Spitfighter]

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deleted. wrong thread.

[PiyaraPakistan]

Dear Darky evryone knows that Pakistani missile technology is far better than India and i think you also know that.

[DARKY]

I am not putting words in your mouth, what else would you mean with a stupid question like that. Being patriotic is one thing but being an idiot is another, i honestly cannot believe that you think PAF wont catch Brahmos on its radar. Now, i am not going to baby you as you want me to, here are two excellent links, read them and comprehend it. Put some damn effort in instead of finding shortcuts.

Infrared Countermeasures Systems
ERIEYE AEW&C / S100B Argus

Your links still don't answer the question "How can your radar track a heat emitting body ??"
And No matter what damn efforts you put or freaking researches you do to copy and paste from other defense forms.... you still won't get the answer... hence its better to admit that your ridiculous claims about radars detecting a heat emitting body was a complete non-sense which you puked out of sheer patriotism, idiotism, fanboism.. and etc.. etc.. isms...

[GURU DUTT]

Your links still don't answer the question "How can your radar track a heat emitting body ??"
And No matter what damn efforts you put or freaking researches you do to copy and paste from other defense forms.... you still won't get the answer... hence its better to admit that your ridiculous claims about radars detecting a heat emitting body was a complete non-sense which you puked out of sheer patriotism, idiotism, fanboism.. and etc.. etc.. isms...

seneor good morning & treat thrm a bit kindly

[DARKY]

Nobody's running away. You refuse to accept reality and want to believe in the BrahMos. Same reaction as Indians in that other thread.

How many natural phenomena do you know on this planet that have a big as$ heat signature and that move at mach 3? According to you, Indian satellites can see people sitting in their backyards, but other countries, which can already track ballistic missiles, can't track such a huge heat signature moving at an unnatural speed -- especially over a cold ocean.

Accept reality is the key here... hope your friend realizes that....
There are many natural and unnatural phenomenon which emit more heat...
How will your IR detectors and tracking equipment distinguish a 50degree Celsius object of the size of brahmos in say a 30-35 degree Celsius heated sea and almost 50-55 degree Celsius heated sands of the Thar desert...
Ballistic missiles emit extremely high heat, are bigger, generate a lot of smoke during launch, leave a tail behind its path, have rocket fuel burning out of exhaust and have a defined trajectory... which in addition is ballistic to make tracking a lot easier....

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

Dear Darky evryone knows that Pakistani missile technology is far better than India and i think you also know that.

Yes I do...

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

seneor good morning & treat thrm a bit kindly

Good morning... and yes a nice suggestion about the kindnesses part... Thanks for that....

[Developereo]

There are many natural and unnatural phenomenon which emit more heat...
How will your IR detectors and tracking equipment distinguish a 50degree Celsius object of the size of brahmos in say a 30-35 degree Celsius heated sea and almost 50-55 degree Celsius heated sands of the Thar desert...

How many of these natural phenomena travel at mach 3?

The combination of heat signature and high speed are dead giveaways for BrahMos.

P.S. The temperature of 50C was at 37000 feet. At sea level, the temperature is expected to be in excess of 1000F (538C).

[ares]

How many of these natural phenomena travel at mach 3?

The combination of heat signature and high speed are dead giveaways for BrahMos.

Lets say you detect the missiles with the infrared camera you have placed on your satellite(which btw you don't have) then what?

[DARKY]

How many of these natural phenomena travel at mach 3?

The combination of heat signature and high speed are dead giveaways for BrahMos.

What has Mach 3 got to do with tracking.... only think which it can do on contrary is make tracking difficult since the path would be a horizontal cruise....
If according to you a satellite were to track a brahmos then tracking fighter planes were to be a lot easier....
Current technology allows for tracking of naval ships in ISRO but yes NASA has satellites which can track an MBT in an urban environment but for that the satellites need to be pre-programmed and extensive coverage is required.... what you need to realize is that detection and tracking are two different things altogether... you still detect a vehicle near your house using google earth.. but won't be able to track its movement..

[LiberalAtheist]

Dear Darky evryone knows that Pakistani missile technology is far better than India and i think you also know that.

according to who? you? even this clown accepts Indian missiles are better

[Developereo]

Lets say you detect the missiles with the infrared camera you have placed on your satellite(which btw you don't have) then what?

As notorious_eagle pointed out, our AWACS should be enough since they already see beyond the BrahMos range. Pakistan may or may not have interceptor technology, I don't know. The point is that the technology exists in the west and, quite possibly, China.

What has Mach 3 got to do with tracking.... only think which it can do on contrary is make tracking difficult since the path would be a horizontal cruise....
If according to you a satellite were to track a brahmos then tracking fighter planes were to be a lot easier....
Current technology allows for tracking of naval ships in ISRO but yes NASA has satellites which can track an MBT in an urban environment but for that the satellites need to be pre-programmed and extensive coverage is required.... what you need to realize is that detection and tracking are two different things altogether... you still detect a vehicle near your house using google earth.. but won't be able to track its movement..

Systems can already track ballistic missiles moving much faster than mach3 and you feel that a 538C object will simply vanish from view.

[ares]

As notorious_eagle pointed out, our AWACS should be enough since they already see beyond the BrahMos range. Pakistan may or may not have interceptor technology, I don't know. The point is that the technology exists in the west and, quite possibly, China.



Systems can already track ballistic missiles moving much faster than mach3 and you feel that a 538C object will simply vanish from view.

Your whole concept is mixed up here..

1.) Yes both ballistic missile and cruise missiles can be detected..though both need to have different kind of sys in place to detect them...for detecting a ballistic missile you need an air search high altitude radar , which can track targets travelling at great speeds(5-8Km/sec).

For detecting a low flying cruise missile you need Airborne radars(aerostat or Awacs) having the ability differentiate the target from underlying ground clutter.

2.) Now ballistic missile flies parabolic trajectory..hence its point of origin, point of impact and exact flight path can determined once a radar starts tracking it. Whereas cruise missile have a essentially a flat trajectory in which mid course deviation(Waypoints)can be programmed as it has engine powered flight throughout(unlike ballistic missiles which only have their engine powered during boost phase)..point here being the flight path of cruise missile can not be predicted.

3.)To intercept any missile(or any flying object) the speed of interceptor should be higher than speed of the target.(so that it can manouvere at same or higher speed than target).

Now Bhramos essentially has two flight profiles Lo-Hi-Lo(range 300 Km) and Lo-Lo-Lo(range 120 Km)..In the later it flies nap of the Earth where air resistance is more hence the reduced range.

Now if you wan't intercept Brahmos when it is flying Lo-Hi-Lo you will need an interceptor with speed more than 3.2 Mach and engagement altitude more than 30 Km(you don't have one and neither do Chinese..American claims there SM3 interceptors can do it)

If you want to intercept Brahmos when its flying a Lo-Lo-Lo profile well you will be extremely lucky ..because its entire flight time will be less than 100secs) in addition the Brahmos flight path should passing over SAM batteries capable of doing over mach 3.

Hence you will have less than 100sec to detect the target using AWACs.. start tracking it(there is a few seconds delay before the radar starts tracking the target after it has been acquired)..relay the information to SAM batteries..SAM batteries to start tracking the target using their own radars..to fire their engines and get going...Hence it is next to impossible due to low rxn time.

[Developereo]

For detecting a low flying cruise missile you need Airborne radars(aerostat or Awacs) having ability differentiate target from underlying ground clutter.

Not hard to differentiate a 538C body from "ground clutter".

To intercept any missile(or flying object) the speed of interceptor should be higher than speed of the target.(so that it manouvere at same or higher speed than target).

Wrong.

The missile is coming at you, i.e. at the interceptor. The interceptor is not chasing the missile; it just has to get in its way.

A brick wall travelling at ZERO km/h will intercept the BrahMos just fine.

A million rounds from a MetalStorm or similar only have to get in its way.

A heat seeking missile only has to get in its way.

The rest of the post is irrelevant since it relies on the above faulty premise.

[ares]

Not hard to differentiate a 538C body from "ground clutter".

Now you are again mixing us the two concepts .. an aircraft has essentially two kinds of detection techniques..one is the radar(range 300 Km for an AWACS) and second one is IRST(Infra red search and track).
So question is does your AWACS or any other plane carry a IRST?

Second point here being tracking range of an IRST is just 20 Kms..so if you start tracking the missile at just 20 Km from the target ..you are as good as dead.

Wrong.

The missile is coming at you, i.e. at the interceptor. The interceptor is not chasing the missile; it just has to get in its way.

A brick wall travelling at ZERO km/h will intercept the BrahMos just fine.

A million rounds from a MetalStorm or similar only have to get in its way.

A heat seeking missile only has to get in its way.

The rest of the post is irrelevant since it relies on the above faulty premise.

Contrary to your belief no missile has a straight line trjectoy ..external forces such as air resistance are constantly throwing it of its planned path..and the missile guidance sys is also constantly trying to bring it back to its planned path hence every missile is in constant state monouver deviating upto hundreds of meters from its planned path and then coming back to it and then deviatingagain..hence it is at best a zig-zag motion.

Second point here being all cruise missile have the ability to change their course at will, infact many just like Bhramos and Tomahawk also follow a terminal 'S' manouvere to fool the interceptors.

So if the interceptor missile is not able to to manouvere at the same speed as the target it will never be able to intercept the missile.

Even if the interceptor misses its target by one meter ..it is still a miss.

As far ability of CIWS to destroy the missile..it theoretically exists, but the missile will have to extremely close to its target as CIWS do not have much range and even if destroyed the oncoming debris(at mach 3.2) has enough kinetic energy to totally decimate the target.

[DARKY]

Systems can already track ballistic missiles moving much faster than mach3 and you feel that a 538C object will simply vanish from view.

Are you serious....
Or just blabbermouthing what ever comes there.... like your friend notorious
Here's what your esteemed poster had to say about surface temperature of brahmos....

Yes at mach 2.8 the Brahmos is really fast, at nearly 3 times the speed of sound the estimated skin temperature of the missile is approximately 323 K or 49.85 deg C at 37,000 ft.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-d...tml#post783777

Think before what you say... and think again when you write that to someone.
You two are just making a laughing stock of yourselves here with No knowledge about the subject at all....

[mafiya]

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Are you serious....
Or just blabbermouthing what ever comes there.... like your friend notorious
Here's what your esteemed poster had to say about surface temperature of brahmos....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-d...tml#post783777

Think before what you say... and think again when you write that to someone.
You two are just making a laughing stock of yourselves here with No knowledge about the subject at all....

Can Land version of BrahMos follows Lo-Lo-Lo trajectory or only Sea version can do the Lo-Hi-Lo and Lo-Lo-Lo